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George Zimmerman case

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Posted about 1 year ago

 

OK... Not being in civilian law enforcement, I have questions about the case. From what I understand, isn't Stand Your Ground now for defense of life and home, not a neighborhood watch? And, it sounds like he pursued Martin without just cause. But Martin turned around to confront George? Am I understanding correctly? I don't see this being a racial case, more a case of self-aggrandizing. Any input that can be given would be appreciated. 

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Rated +1 | Posted about 1 year ago

 

According to the verdict it covers public places.

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Rated +1 | Posted about 1 year ago

 

Bump my friend uncledennis.I don't see that it has set a precident,but could be the beginning of a trend.One will find in criminal cases,which has been true since the beginning of time,that the defence will opt for a trial by jury ,rather than a trial by judge.This is simply because the jury will NEVER understand law the elements of any given law or legal ramifications of law like a judge does.Jurys are made of a panel of citizens,whether they be doctors,nurses,school teachers,etc.,etc. who are NOT expected to know a specific law even after the judge has given them hours upon hours of instructions.In every trial in every country ,which has ever been conducted there will always be some who believe the verdict was wrong and some who believe it was proper,it's human nature.Much is involved in the interpretation  of said law /laws  in question.Laws(state statutes),city and county codes and ordanances are conceived by law makers( politicians) ,who are usually lawyers.,Contrary to popular belief lawyers are not always the most brilliant individuals in the world and all too many laws are vague and contain many ambiguities and contradictions..A certain number of laws are re-visited by the state legislatures and I am convinced that the Florida state legislature will do exactly that due to public pressure.To begin with ,in the specific case in question the prosecution started behind the eight ball by NOT turning over to the defence,the information they had during the process called "Discovery".This is franlkly illegal and at the least,the prosecution team should have been held in contempt of court,by the judge or  been suspended by the A.B.A.

Copy_of_oct3_2012_max50

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Rated +1 | Posted about 1 year ago

 

 I believe Zimmerman's plea was self defense not stand your ground. But Zimmerman put his self in that situation and then had to use deadly force to get out of it.   My civilian interpitation of the law is you are allowed to defend yourself outside the home if threatened.   And each state has different stand your grond laws. 


YaYa Sister

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Rate This | Posted about 1 year ago

 

navy_doc says ...



OK... Not being in civilian law enforcement, I have questions about the case. From what I understand, isn't Stand Your Ground now for defense of life and home, not a neighborhood watch? And, it sounds like he pursued Martin without just cause. But Martin turned around to confront George? Am I understanding correctly? I don't see this being a racial case, more a case of self-aggrandizing. Any input that can be given would be appreciated. 


Stand your Ground is for your defending yourself along with your family on your property as well as in the public. Each state is different on the circumstances. 


I wouldn't classify Zimmerman walking towards Martin an act of pursuing. I'd call it what every neighborhood watch person should do. Keep an eye out for their neighbors. Zimmerman saw someone that didn't or look right, so he checked it out. Due to all the break-ins and crimes he followed Martin. When the fight started (no idea who started) and when Zimmerman was getting his head beat in he had the right to stand his ground and use the right force that he thought necessary to end the situation. I think the defense used a lot of what Zimmerman was feeling at that time of the fight, which fell into the self defense.



You wouldn't go in there for a million bucks...A Cop does it for less...A Reserve does it for free....

1asteriskshield_ezr_max50

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Rated +1 | Posted about 1 year ago

 

 Zimmerman claimed self defense, period. The media ginned up "stand your ground". The case is over criminally, he was acquitted. The civil trial is to come. Thee are 2 very distinctive differences between the 2 being that in the criminal case he was to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In this the prosecution failed in the charges against Zimmerman. In the civil trial the Martins will only have to prove the death was wrongful based upon the preponderance of evidence (or 51%). As far as him pursuing Martin and being told not to by 911 dispatchers, keep in mind those dispatchers hold no legal authority hence he does not have to listen to their advice. 


You can't cure stupid.

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Rated +1 | Posted about 1 year ago

 

IF mr Zimmerman would have stayed in his vehicle like he was told this would not have happened. If Mr Zimmerman would have gone to the Emergancy room and have documented his injuries this would not have happened. If the media wasn't such obnoxious morons and had gotten some facts this would not have happened . And if Mr Zimmerman would have turned himself over to the police and said clear me this would not have happened.

And if Mr martin didn't want skittles and sweet tea this would not have happened I think everyone should have stayed home that day.

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Rated +3 | Posted about 1 year ago

 

Elite1grey says ...



IF mr Zimmerman would have stayed in his vehicle like he was told this would not have happened. If Mr Zimmerman would have gone to the Emergancy room and have documented his injuries this would not have happened. If the media wasn't such obnoxious morons and had gotten some facts this would not have happened . And if Mr Zimmerman would have turned himself over to the police and said clear me this would not have happened.


And if Mr martin didn't want skittles and sweet tea this would not have happened I think everyone should have stayed home that day.

Zimmerman did "turn himself over to the police" who in fact cleared him of any criminal wrongdoing and did not seek to press charges as it was clearly (according to the jury) self defense. Lest we forget the Sanford Police Department did investigate this case and Zimmerman was not charged for a full month after he was cleared from any criminal act. The reason why he was charged? Good question but it looks as if pressure from the DoJ was involved. The media? Anyone in this business for more than about a month knows how they are. Facts? Who gives a darn about facts when it fits an agenda whatever that may be according to them. 


You can't cure stupid.

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Rate This | Posted about 1 year ago

 

 I know what situations I would put myself in if I were armed and if I were unarmed. I find it difficult to think he would have followed Martin if he were unarmed. Maybe my military background is directing me here though. I would be thinking about being attacked or ambushed, both by him and/or a group. I only know of this case by what I see & hear in the media (I know...) but what has piqued my interest is the many rallies around the country for justice for Treyvon. The underlying theme seems to be not justice, but race. If George was just in protecting himself and killing someone, race plays no part. Seems like kids nowadays should be more educated to surroundings and situations. And neighborhood watch members should know limits placed upon them. 

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Rated +1 | Posted about 1 year ago

 

 To try to help with understanding the "stand your ground" or as it was called in Texas the" castle doctrine" first it never replaced  self defense. What it did was to remove requirements that a person retreat or exhaust all avenues of escape before using force to defend your person or property. Many states required a victim that used force, especially deadly force to prove that they had done everything reasonable to retreat from an assailant before fighting back. Or at home, the victim had to demonstrate that there was no possible escape before using force on an invader. I know for most of us those requirements seem unreasonable because the victims were becoming the criminal just because they stood their ground. Also, many of the states including Florida added exemptions or immunity from civil suits for a person that was defending themselves or their property from law suits brought by the person or persons family that had the force used against them during the incident. Maybe this will help, "stand your ground" was really just added to clarify what most people thought the self defense laws really were. For Zimmerman and Martin a lot of things came together wrong at one time. If either one had just done one thing differently both would still be going on their happy way today

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Rate This | Posted about 1 year ago

 

Thank you, Chief, for clarifying that portion for me. And am I correct in thinking that the federal government is getting around double indemnity by pursuing civil rights violations instead of murder? I don't understand how civil rights plays into this. I'm much more familiar with the UCMJ than with civilian law. 

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Rated +2 | Posted about 1 year ago

 

 Bump AJ. 


It was all reported Elite. It was reported, pictured, documented, and taped. Police cleared him, no evidence to convict. The only reason it went further was because the president and the DOJ were having cows and went witch hunting. 


Bump Navy_Doc! I always do the same when I go out. 


You wouldn't go in there for a million bucks...A Cop does it for less...A Reserve does it for free....

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Rate This | Posted about 1 year ago

 

navy_doc says ...



Thank you, Chief, for clarifying that portion for me. And am I correct in thinking that the federal government is getting around double indemnity by pursuing civil rights violations instead of murder? I don't understand how civil rights plays into this. I'm much more familiar with the UCMJ than with civilian law. 


People think Zimmerman abused Martin's civil rights some how. Not sure exactly. I think their just doing this cause they didn't get the verdict they wanted. The law states that if a self defense case is found lawful is immune from civil lawsuit. So in the long run the Martin's might end up paying Zimmerman with court cost, legal fees and what not. On the other hand if wrongful death is proved in this case, which is easier than manslaughter. 



You wouldn't go in there for a million bucks...A Cop does it for less...A Reserve does it for free....

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Rate This | Posted about 1 year ago

 

The way they get around the Constitutional prohibition on double jeopardy is claiming two separate offenses occurred in the single incident. Murder being a state crime, civil rights violation a federal crime. This is how civilian LEOs are treated all the time. Because acting under the color of the office, as a member of the government, you could violate a citizen's rights in conjunction with whatever else occurred. For a citizen to violate the civil rights of another citizen it has to be what would commonly be described as a hate crime against a "protected group" (actions against another because of race, gender, sexual preference, age etc). It is rarely used because it is hard to prove. Just like in this case it would be one of the elements of the offense, and each and every element of an offense has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. When you cannot do that, prove each and every element, then you don't have a case.  

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Rated +2 | Posted about 1 year ago

 

This trial and the charges were because of political and media pressure, and nothing else.  I have never seen such an abuse of our justice system in my life. The Chief of Sanford made the right call initially, and the Jury confirmed it with their verdict. Enough said it is a done deal. It really doesn't matter what you and I think.  The system has spoken.


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Rate This | Posted about 1 year ago

 

Thank you for your input. I thought this might be a complicated case but now it doesn't seem so bad. But, another question. How can the federal government bring about charges when the local court has already found him innocent? He didn't act against race, gender or whatever. He acted in self defense. The federal case seems frivolous, a waste of money and time. And what can George do in response to being acquitted? Or in response to the federal government? 

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Rated +1 | Posted about 1 year ago

 

navy_doc says ...



Thank you for your input. I thought this might be a complicated case but now it doesn't seem so bad. But, another question. How can the federal government bring about charges when the local court has already found him innocent? He didn't act against race, gender or whatever. He acted in self defense. The federal case seems frivolous, a waste of money and time. And what can George do in response to being acquitted? Or in response to the federal government? 


The Fed's can bring Civil Rights violations against a civilian or police officer for violating ones civil rights.  This is not a double jepordy issue. They cannot try him for murder as he was tried for, but for depriving him of his freedom of life.  Usually police officers get caught up in civil rights violations for something as simple as fourth amendment violations such as search and seizure or false arrest issues.  This is not a good place for a person to be, (civil rights violation).  I think Zimmerman will be fine in this case, because they have to show the case or death was racially motivatied, and I do not think that was an issue here at all.  That is a very difficult area to prove.



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Rated +1 | Posted about 1 year ago

 

navy_doc says ...



Thank you for your input. I thought this might be a complicated case but now it doesn't seem so bad. But, another question. How can the federal government bring about charges when the local court has already found him innocent? He didn't act against race, gender or whatever. He acted in self defense. The federal case seems frivolous, a waste of money and time. And what can George do in response to being acquitted? Or in response to the federal government? 


 


You are right case does seem frivolous even more so in light of the FBI report. All he can really do right now is wait ad see what happens next.


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Rate This | Posted about 1 year ago

 

A civil case should not be brought about against Zimmerman, imo.  It was not a race issue.  It was a kid who tried to beat up an armed man.  Zimmerman was being beaten and he protected his life from potentially being taken.  Whether or not he pursued Martin is irrelevant.  At the time of the fight, he had every right to protect himself.  And Martin, should have not been beating on him in the first place.  Had he just told Zimmerman that he was on an evening walk enjoying his skittles, Zimmerman probably would have just turned around and drove off.  Or Zimmerman would have continued to follow  him, which is not illegal.  But Martin chose to fight...he lost and it cost him his life.

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Rate This | Posted about 1 year ago

 

I have underlined the most important of JIMROC's observations from my civilian perspective.


A preponderance of evidence would  have to show that George Zimmerman did NOT act in self-defense, rather ,thatZimmerman caused Trayvon Martin's death because of his own mal-intended and/or negligent act that sprang out of a hatred/bias toward African-Americans.  I agree with JIMROC - a tough one to prove.


As JIMROC indicates, the plaintiff would have to show that Zimmerman was/is possessed of a race-hatred/bias that gave rise to his actions to deprive Trayvon Martin's 'freedom of life.'  Or, as I believe is enough, to deprive Zimmerman of his 'freedom of movement.'


In either case - can such mal-intention/negligence be shown? Within constraints of the rule of law?  Maybe - but probably not.


If we stand back and take a hard look - maybe it's a good thing we can't prove that one too easily. 


Similar to how mens rea MUST continue on through to actus reus, in civil court, 'harmful intent' or 'negligence' must continue through to the 'tort'. 


All of us know our adversarial system will NEVER convict- in criminal OR civil court- on the basis of what we THINK is running through someone's twisted, dirtbag brain, their secretly-bigoted one, or their vaguely-misguided, annoying one.  Rather, we convict based upon their actions


Is there evidence showing the unlikeable Zimmerman to have expressed remarks and blocked a person of color's free- movement in the past by means of brandishing a weapon? Can Zimmerman be shown in the past to have  threatened or intimidated any person(s) of color by any other expressed means?  Can Zimmerman be shown to have done likewise when he encountered Martin that night?


If Zimmerman had been heard shouting, "Hold it right there, you n*****!!" we would have had a whole different outcome.  Did Zimmerman mutter a racial epithet?  We may never know.  One thing has been spotlighted.  When the sun goes down, freedom of movement means something altogether different to persons of color - to women walking alone.


A painful trial for us all.  One that shows the emotional cost of the presumption of innocence we Americans so deeply cherish.   Would we have it any other way?  God forbid. 


We answer to a Higher Authority. 


JIMROC says ...



navy_doc says ...



Thank you for your input. I thought this might be a complicated case but now it doesn't seem so bad. But, another question. How can the federal government bring about charges when the local court has already found him innocent? He didn't act against race, gender or whatever. He acted in self defense. The federal case seems frivolous, a waste of money and time. And what can George do in response to being acquitted? Or in response to the federal government? 


 


The Fed's can bring Civil Rights violations against a civilian or police officer for violating ones civil rights.  This is not a double jepordy issue. They cannot try him for murder as he was tried for, but for depriving him of his freedom of life.  Usually police officers get caught up in civil rights violations for something as simple as fourth amendment violations such as search and seizure or false arrest issues.  This is not a good place for a person to be, (civil rights violation).  I think Zimmerman will be fine in this case, because they have to show the case or death was racially motivatied, and I do not think that was an issue here at all.  That is a very difficult area to prove.


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Rate This | Posted about 1 year ago

 

allright, i stayed out of this conversation for as long as i can. First, to posters, navydoc, i will answer a few of your questions in my description of events below, unca d., verdict concerning public places? huh? brother dave, i will add some of the info re; withheld info by prosecutors, Ladyg, Zimmerman put himself in the situation? stryker, zimmerman did not walk towards martin, aj's pops, zimmerman did not pursue and WAS NOT TOLD NOT TO (too many people getting this wrong), elite? stayed in vehicle?turned himself into police? Chief and jimr, great analysis of stand your ground and civil rights cases. Now, three weeks watching this case everyday, did not miss anything and did a whole lot of research also. Here is my drift on the situation as it unfolded.


Sometime around 7pm george zimmerman was driving to supermarket as he always did on a sunday night. george is a neighborhood watch person in a gated community which has been the scene of many burglaries and break ins, sometimes of occupied dwellings in recent history. George sees a male wearing dark clothing walking, slowly, looking around, on a raining nite, not on the sidewalk but on the grass nearer peoples windows. sidewalk is at least 20 feet from buildings and unk male is half way to building line. unk person is not walking as one would going home during rain. george watches from his vehicle and sees male checking out the area and not moving in a definate way. Zimmerman pulls into a parking area near a recreation center and calls police non emergency which he has done 46 times before.  while on the phone with the dispatcher and giving info, zimmerman states he sees male hanging out in the rain near peoples homes and he thinks he is possible on drugs (MARTIN'S BLOOD TESTED POSITIVE FOR CANABIS WITH AMOUNTS THAT SHOW HE INJESTED MARIJUANA WITHIN HOURS). While zimmerman is  on phone with dispatcher, Unk male now known as Martin. sees zimmerman watching him from his car and approaches zimmerman and walks around his auto checking zimmerman out. Anyone listening to the recorded tape at that time will hear the distress and fear zimmerman felt as martin approached his car.  It was during the conversation with dispatch that dispatch asked for description and zimmerman replied I think he is black.Zimmerman is trying to describe where police should meet him when he states, Martin is running. NOW THE FOUR MINUTE TIME BEGINS.  dispatch asks zimmerman  where martin is running and zimmerman states  i cant tell.  Up the road from where zimmerman is parked, about 75 feet, the  road turns right and then loops left into kinda a culda sac.  Zimmerman drives up there and gets out of his car attempting to see where martin has gone to. There is a path almost straight ahead of his parked truck that leads up about 150 ft to another culda sac,  zimmerman is still talking to dispatch and trying to get a house number but cant because on his left is rear of town houses and on his right is side of townhouses. Zimmerman continues walking, looking for martin and a house number to give police to meet him. 75 feet up the path there is an intersecting path off to his right which runs down the back of townhouses on both sides, zimmerman passes that intersection and just as he gets to the end of the main path near the next culda sac the dispatcher asks zimmerman if he was still following martin and zimmerman says yes, he is still looking for him and an address number and the dispatcher says YOU DONT HAVE TO DO THAT.  Zimmerman says okay i will go back to my truck and the police can meet me there or call me (during the four minutes so far, zimmerman has been giving dispatch his name and address and phone number and descriptions of where he is,  this out of shape male was not running after a 17 year old male who had a head start on him. after dispatch said he didnt have to do that, zimmerman hung up with police and turned and began to walk back the 150 ft path back to his truck, when he gets to the intersecting path, (now on his left) martin approaches him from his left rear and questions zimmerman YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH ME? END FOUR MINUTE TIME LAPSE FROM MARTINS FIRST RUNNING TO HIS APPROACHING ZIMMERMAN AT PATH INTERSECTION AS VERIFIED BY PHONE RECORDS OF MARTINS TALK WITH FEMALE FRIEND.  zimmerman says no and martin responds WELL YOU DO NOW AND PUNCHES HIM IN THE NOSE, BREAKING IT, zimmerman drops his keys with the little pen light attached at the path intersection and is continously assaulted by martin who eventually knocks zimmerman to the ground and mounts him and continuously strikes zimmerman about the head, at times during the assault, zimmermans head ends up on the concrete path and martins strikes cause zimmermans head to hit pavement multiple times, his breathing is labored due to the assault and broken nose, Zimmerman struggles to free himself, and continously yells for help to no avail, during his struggle,  zimmermans coat rises up exposing his firear,m seated in a holster on his right hip, martin states now i'm gonna kill you and reaches down and zimmerman reaches down, pulls martins hand away, draws his pistol and fires one round up into martins chest. Martin lurches back and zimmerman knocks martin off him and pushes martin over on his stomach and speads his arms out and stays atop martin till police arrive.  Time lapse from gunshot to police officer arriving on scene was about 14 seconds. Martin and neighbors who know come out of their homes give stories to police. Yes, Martin did not have the opportunity to give his side of the story but witnesses, along with crime scene and forensic evidence cooroborate this.


facts that i see people missing:


martin did not live in the gated community, he had been there for 4 days, he lived in miami, he was suspended from school for the third time and his mother sent him to his father cause she couldnt control him.


martin was not walking home from the 7-11,  if he was, why was he walking in a manner that would catch zimmermans attention? why was he off the concrete sidewalk walking on the grass near peoples homes in the pouring rain?


are you aware that within 10 days of the shooting incident, martin had SIX  different text messages with six different individuals where he was attempting to buy a .22 revolver?


Martin was a drug user, marijuana in his system at time of shooting and phone texts talking of fighting and drug use INCLUDING USING  PURPLE DRAND OR LEAN (INGREDIENTS OF DRANK ARE JUICE DRINK, MARTINS WAS NOT ICE TEA BUT ARIZONA WATERMELLON JUICE DRINK, WHEN MIXED WITH CODEINE AND SKITTLES (for more sweetner) is a popular drug/drink in the south. google purple drank, please.


Martin had been caught with marijuana risidue at school and at another time caught with screw driver and female jewelry.


And lastly, forget the pics of martin in all the news stories, they are just there to inflame the masses and sell papers, Martin was almost 6 feet tall, a good 4 inches bigger that zimmerman, was used to fighting, and was in good shape, i one of his texts on fighting, he brags of loosing the first round but winning the next two and wanted to draw more blood because he wasnt done with this guy yet.


hope i didnt waste your time with this lengthy post.

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Rate This | Posted about 1 year ago

 

 Not bad Mikep, but you left something out, that  Martin's thought processes were influenced by his conversation with his girlfriend. When she told Martin that the guy following him could be a rapist or pervert you know what went through his mind. Which could explain why he got on top of Zimmerman and continued to "pound" him. Just a thought.

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Rate This | Posted about 1 year ago

 

Great post, Mikesplace. I missed most of the trial, only know of what the MSM has reported. As I stated earlier, and you have confirmed, this is not a race case but self defense. If your synopsis is the same as what the jury heard, I side with the jury 100%. And I am even more against the people supporting Martin; their actions have to be based on ignorance of the facts and on race. And, thusly, DOJ should find no basis for a civil rights trial. Thanks for the posting.