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DNA for Missing Children

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Posted over 1 year ago

 

 I'm doing a presentation on How to Keep our Children Safe & What to do IF Anything Happens and One is Missing.  The one topic is concerning DNA.  I know that blood is the best source for dna BUT here's my question -- fresh or dried the best????  


PLEASE only answer IF YOU KNOW -- COPs/CRIME LAB persons only.  Need to know ASAP.  Thanks, Joyful2_aka_Joyful

Csi_squirrle_max600_1__max50

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 I know, I just don't do other people's homework.  Google is your friend.

Angel_kincaid_park_2014_max50

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HEHEHE, mmmm


"It's Never To Late To Be What You Could Have Been"

White_shirt_max50

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I am suspicious of your request. You have a skeleton profile. Are you in any way connected to law enforcement? Is this a college assignment? As stated by mmmm we do not do home work for members. You need to properly research this topic. Once you complete this assignment you will feel much better than attempting to take short cuts.

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Either one is good.  If it is going to be stored for a period of time, it should be dried first. 


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Rated +1 | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Blood is fungible. It would need to be preserved properly to provide maximum efficacy and forensic value.


That's 17 words. You'll need to come up with the other 433 words from your own studies. Bwahaha..... !


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No I'm not an officer.  No it is not a college assignment.  It is a speaking engagement presentation only but I still need the facts to be correct.  


as was said by one of my heros "JUST the FACTS, JUST the FACTS"    Always have LOVED Joe Friday


 


uncledennis1 says ...


I am suspicious of your request. You have a skeleton profile. Are you in any way connected to law enforcement? Is this a college assignment? As stated by mmmm we do not do home work for members. You need to properly research this topic. Once you complete this assignment you will feel much better than attempting to take short cuts.

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

I tried Google but most of that talks about paternity testing and how officers are to collect the evidence -- no eating or drinking coffee, wearing gloves-required, using face mask so you don't get it contaminated.


Paternity -- I really don't care about


Crime Scenes -- I enjoy knowing more about these BUT it's just for my personal knowledge at this time.


Think about it as a presentation to a bunch of Rotary Club types.


 


 mmmm says ...



 I know, I just don't do other people's homework.  Google is your friend.


White_shirt_max50

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I am confused how a non law enforcement not an expert in the field could address this topic. Why not schedule a professional in the field to address this topic. That would be like me speaking to a group on how to fly a 747. Where is your credibility. I know the answers you were seeking however, felt you should research and not rely on others to do your work. You should put forth the effort in seeking the answers to your questions. What happens if you are not correct in your delivery? I feel you are way over your head.

Tribal_cat_tattoo__2__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Just curious.. if I wanted to know an answer to a question that had to do with the Law Enforcement field, I would probably post it here to see what kind of answers I would get because of the vast experiences people have on this site. When is a question not a good question?  I can understand not doing someone's homework for them, and I can understand suggesting using Google, but sometimes there is nothing like asking someone with experience.  One of the uses of "Forums" is to assist and help educate, are they not?   Even when you use Google, on several occassions, Google will point you to a "Forum". 


So with that being said, I think it is important, when someone asks a question, to show our knowledge and give an answer.... if and only if it is a question you have the knowledge.


"Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives." - Ronald Reagan

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Blood is not necessarily the best source of DNA, why you ask, because blood is mostly plasma - no DNA and red blood cells - no DNA, only the leukocytes (white blood cells) have DNA.  Advantage is that blood typically is low in viruses and prokarotic cells (bacteria) which could introduce foreign DNA.  A cheek swab is less invasive, but more likely to have prokarotes included.


PS  I am a cop but not a crime lab person, however I was a scientist before I became a cop, so there.


and I might add that as a cop I learned virtually nothing about DNA, my knowledge came elsewhere.

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Catwoman911. I understand where you are coming from however, would rather see a person conduct their own study/research then to come on site for a short cut. I am well educated and did my own research and never asked anyone for assistance. This is how a person learns. I never did like the easy way and will not provide answers to those not willing to work for the end results. Doing ones own work is an excellent learning process. It worked for me and can work for others willing to put forth the time and effort. Why not communicate with a professional in her area?


To the OP what is your level of education? Is this your first presentation? Lastly why you?

Csi_squirrle_max600_1__max50

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uncledennis1 says ...



I am confused how a non law enforcement not an expert in the field could address this topic. Why not schedule a professional in the field to address this topic. That would be like me speaking to a group on how to fly a 747. Where is your credibility. I know the answers you were seeking however, felt you should research and not rely on others to do your work. You should put forth the effort in seeking the answers to your questions. What happens if you are not correct in your delivery? I feel you are way over your head.


 


I agree Uncle D.  To the OP.  What will you do if someone asks a question??  I have done these types of talks many times.  Why not call your local cop shop and have them send someone who can give the straight scoop?  Blood is seldom used for the purpose you state.  DNA labs hate getting known blood samples.  If you google child DNA kit your question will be answered.  You may actually have to read a little though.


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uncledennis1 says ...



Catwoman911. I understand where you are coming from however, would rather see a person conduct their own study/research then to come on site for a short cut. I am well educated and did my own research and never asked anyone for assistance. This is how a person learns. I never did like the easy way and will not provide answers to those not willing to work for the end results. Doing ones own work is an excellent learning process. It worked for me and can work for others willing to put forth the time and effort. Why not communicate with a professional in her area?


**snip**



Thanks UncleD. I appreciate the response.  And I totally agree with someone doing research on a topic by speaking with a professional in that particular field.  But there are times when it may be difficult to find someone with such knowledge.  For example, if I wanted to know about a 747, I would not know a single person to go to for help; I would use the Internet or ask in a general Forum. 


I am very well educated too.. and did not take the easy way out... These days, the Internet is a blessing, but sometimes, you can't find what you are looking for either.. so why not use a Forum of knowledgable people. 


 


"Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives." - Ronald Reagan

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Rated +1 | Posted over 1 year ago

 

I think Uncle Dennis' concerns are justifiable.  While he may have addressed a part of his concerns directly (the research part), the other part of his concern deals with the lack of information on their profile.  What I saw that may quell some of that concern is that the OP has been around for some 3 or more years (according to the posts on the OP's profile).  My concerns though are. . . . . .the profile shows "Actively applying" for a LEO position, but the OP also made the comment that this was about their presentation for child safety.  What gives them "authority" from which to speak about child safety and more to the point. . . . . .facts about DNA collecting and processing?  As we all know, a person can read all of the books that they want about a subject, test out with straight A's on the subject. . . . . .yet have no practical experience.  That is obviously true with the OP here as they are going to be doing a presentation that includes DNA workups and what not, yet they don't have much of a clue on the principles involved with that particular topic.  So they will be talking as an expert on child safety. .  . .but know little about the topic.  How much useable information will be gleaned from that presentation?  Will the people listening to the presentation learn anything of value from that presentation?  What mis-information will be passed on to the viewers of this presentation that could be parlayed into passing this mis-information onto more mis-information and so on and so on by well meaning people that just don't know any better because the original presentation was faulty to begin with?


I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them.

John Bernard Books, from "The Shootist"

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The easiest way is to get a buccal sample from the person or persons and it can be kept ready for use.

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This is a great answer.  I didn't know you were a scientist before you became a cop, Cedardale!  You Da Man.



Cedardale says ...



Blood is not necessarily the best source of DNA, why you ask, because blood is mostly plasma - no DNA and red blood cells - no DNA, only the leukocytes (white blood cells) have DNA.  Advantage is that blood typically is low in viruses and prokarotic cells (bacteria) which could introduce foreign DNA.  A cheek swab is less invasive, but more likely to have prokarotes included.


PS  I am a cop but not a crime lab person, however I was a scientist before I became a cop, so there.


and I might add that as a cop I learned virtually nothing about DNA, my knowledge came elsewhere.


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5/28/13. I communicated with the OP a couple of days and axed her to respond to additional comments. We shall see.

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Ok, I have been asked to do this presentation because of my experience with kids.  I have worked with kids for over 40yrs in multiple facets.  I will also send you a PM Uncledennis1 -- to give you some info that I will not post here because this is an open forum.  Some of the areas I have worked with kiids include but are not limited to....Church, Teacher, Medical, Search & Rescue.  Also, I was asked because I am a part of this group and had a part in organizing several of our safety programs.  This will help inform the group before the decision is made to add dna/fingerprinting to our next program.  Again, the facts still need to be correct.


Our department does not have a crime scene division.  We have one officer that works crime scenes.  At the time I rode with him, he had one other person that worked with him -- I do not know if he is an officer or not.


 


uncledennis1 says ...



5/28/13. I communicated with the OP a couple of days and axed her to respond to additional comments. We shall see.


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Joyful2_aka_Joyful says ...



 


Our department does not have a crime scene division.  We have one officer that works crime scenes.  At the time I rode with him, he had one other person that worked with him -- I do not know if he is an officer or not.


 


Call me crazy but why not ax the officer who works crime scenes?  He/she will have the answers to the questions you seek.  Or better yet have him/her do the presentation?  



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Joyful - Google "blood" "evidence" "collection" "preserve" and you can try "sample" "fungible" (gotta love the Sarge).  See what pops up.


As a public speaker knowing how to do a keyword search  comes in handy when preparing a talk.


Be sure to let the folks who helped you here know how your prep work paid off.  I'd like to know what sources you wind up quoting.

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Rated +2 | Posted over 1 year ago

 

I cannot believe how police officers and other people using this forum can give a person such a hard time on a simple question that most police officers are not even qualified to answer. There are people on this site that are qualified in answering the question asked. As Cops we tend to always second guess why someone is asking a question, but really?  If I know an answer to some citizens question, I am going to answer it. 


We do this everyday as part of or job, so why is it different on here?  This question seems to be part of a presentation on another topic, and not about DNA.  I think they are just searching out some information in case the question is asked. The question posed was simple enough and we should try to help out, not hinder.  If we don't have an answer, that is fine, but we shouldn't be so evasive, and make it seem like we are always doing someones home work, when we're not.


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Thank You!!!


JIMROC says ...



I cannot believe how police officers and other people using this forum can give a person such a hard time on a simple question that most police officers are not even qualified to answer. There are people on this site that are qualified in answering the question asked. As Cops we tend to always second guess why someone is asking a question, but really?  If I know an answer to some citizens question, I am going to answer it. 


We do this everyday as part of or job, so why is it different on here?  This question seems to be part of a presentation on another topic, and not about DNA.  I think they are just searching out some information in case the question is asked. The question posed was simple enough and we should try to help out, not hinder.  If we don't have an answer, that is fine, but we shouldn't be so evasive, and make it seem like we are always doing someones home work, when we're not.


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Rated +1 | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Batgirl, the material the OP is researching is public knowledge. The subject is contained in a lot of college courses. 


She could probably call any local community college and ask whatever retired or current detective is teaching Criminal Investigations 101.  So Batgirl, no need to be hyper-vigilant. JIMROC is right from the standpoint of information sharing.  Fungible.  lol


Folks like to be accurate. Responses in threads take time.  Maybe some folks wonder if they will be quoted accurately or not.  As for shortcuts, I always approach a professional within the context of some investigation work I have already done. That way, I don't create an unwanted impression I am simply using them as a convenience. 


Except for JIMROC.  I LIKE to use HIM as a convenience! 

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

 Actually my friends, this was SUPPOSED to be a very simple question with a one word answer – your choice as to what is needed.  Dried or fresh.  I have seen more children pass from this world to the next than most of you will see in a lifetime of police work – because I worked for a pediatric specialist. He was a doctor who works only with the terminally ill children.  I have held children that have been so badly abused that if I breathed it would cause the child horrifying pain.  The worst case was “Crystal”.  To this day, I cannot stand to hear a child cry when in a doctor’s office or hospital.  I have also worked in a clinical laboratory for almost 10 years.  I worked for a cardiovascular surgeon for 12 years.   I have also worked as a teacher, Sunday school teacher, Bible club leader, AWANA leader, children’s church pastor, and a missionary from Michigan to California. 


When I worked in the medical field, DNA was NOT even thought about except they were thinking about blood providing the answer to paternity but even that was based on the blood groups and not DNA. 


The presentation was on How to Keep our Children Safe & What to do IF Anything Happens and One is Missing.  The DNA was only a part of the total discussion. 


MMMMM—I did ask our crime scene officer and he did NOT know.  He works crime scenes and collects the evidence there and off of suspects whenever possible but did not know about this question because all the blood is collected with moistened swabs if it has dried.


I did not call the university because although’ they have a CJ program only ONE instructor has ever worked as an Officer and he is impossible to get ahold of because of his policy to email only his students.  Office hours are by appointment only three hours a week.  Most of his classes are online so he is not on the campus very often.  I had him for one of my classes and the first class consisted of his student policies.  I tried the Academy.  The do not teach collecting evidence – just how to preserve the crime scene. 


Just as a test I again searched google with the words MarlyB listed – guess what the very first reply was…PoliceLink.  SO I am back to all of you my friends.  DRIED or FRESH.  


 


 

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Joyful, your demand to answer your overly-simplistic, out-of-context ' "Fresh or dried the best?!!" question comes off as strangely condescending, like PL members need to be 'schooled' on the 'simplicity' of your question.   Moderator Jimroc and myself, as well as others support your quest for 'the best'' - whatever 'best' means.


"Best" from an evidence standpoint.  If so, "best" sets your question apart from LE evidence collection protocols and to land square in the arena of analysis.


I believe your question has plenty to do with not just DNA concentration but the evidentiary value within the context of the quality of the sample taken and processed.  . A LOT of variables there.  I am sure you don't want to give the impression you haven't considered any of these things.


Also, I don't understand why you face such hurdles in your research with the odd claim that 'all roads lead to Policelink.'


TheSarge already answered you when he referred to blood as 'fungible.'  You should have deduced from Sarge's remark that a sample of either, fresh or dried, will yield DNA.  That is as far as LEOs here are taking you.  How much, what quality...that depends.  How old is the sample?  What conditions was it subjected to?  Refer also to Sarge's remark on a 400 word length.  YOU ask the questions.


A cursory search yields that collection of fresh blood is preferrable, depending on the condition of the sample and under what circumstances it is taken and preserved.  A cursory google search also yields LE agency instructions on how to collect at the scene.  A google search using keywords "DNA collection" and "crime scene" yields, right off the bat  - The Texas Department of Public Safety -which lists instructions on collection of fresh blood.  I expect they have a phone number:


http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/CrimeLaboratory/CODIS/BloodSample.htm


As you know, nobody is going to ignore fresh blood over dried, nor ignore dried blood in the absence of fresh blood.  Nobody is going to not collect both, nor any and all, at a crime scene. LE also collects blood samples of subjects at times by means of a lancet and applying the sample to a card.  Or simply drawn. 


An officer here has already given buccal sample as preferred for DNA concentration.  Refer to agency protocols.


As to laboratory protocols procedures for properly collected fresh (and dried) blood samples -  preferences for DNA analysis, including whatever protocols are observed to yield the most reliable DNA content - that is your investigation problem.  Age and condition of the sample are factors, you know that. 


In that context, hammering on "Dried or fresh, that's all I'm askin'!!" starts to sound like a dumb question.  I'm sure you wouldn't want to be misunderstood.


As to your remarks on emotional difficulties. Indeed, it is difficult it is to 'work for a doctor' in any capacity where children in distress can be heard.  But I am sure you will agree that 'working for doctor(s)' hardly distinguishes anyone as more empathetic or affected than police officers also 'working with children' in pain and their families.  I am pretty sure you wouldn't want to seek help while leaving the impression their experiences are somehow less important than your own.


"Joyful" - I am certain your expert talk could profit greatly from naming the expert(s) you  speak to about LE and crime lab protocols  in the collection and processing of fresh versus dried blood samples for DNA analysis, and how preferences depend upon a host of variables.


 


 

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Rated +1 | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Thank you! 


JIMROC says ...



I cannot believe how police officers and other people using this forum can give a person such a hard time on a simple question that most police officers are not even qualified to answer. There are people on this site that are qualified in answering the question asked. As Cops we tend to always second guess why someone is asking a question, but really?  If I know an answer to some citizens question, I am going to answer it. 


We do this everyday as part of or job, so why is it different on here?  This question seems to be part of a presentation on another topic, and not about DNA.  I think they are just searching out some information in case the question is asked. The question posed was simple enough and we should try to help out, not hinder.  If we don't have an answer, that is fine, but we shouldn't be so evasive, and make it seem like we are always doing someones home work, when we're not.


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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Marly. I am very impressed with your statement. Maybe you should be giving the presentation. I do hope the OP follows your advice. I had to laugh to myself that the post is a month old and she needed the information immediately.

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Thank you, uncledennis1.  I noticed the immediacy as well.


I have taken some coursework on evidence collection. I would never pretend to be an expert on the forensic value of fresh blood versus dried blood or on any aspect regarding evidence collection, processing or value. 


I sumitted my puny knowledge here for another reason.


The public doesn't understand that police are under strict guidelines to follow very specific protocols required by their departments so that evidence is not compromised as it passes along the chain of custody.  The chain of custody is paramount! SO TOO is the division of duties to determine the forensic value of DNA evidence derived from buccal scraping on down to the slide prep and beyond.


I don't expect that any homicide detective would off-handedly advocate the value of fresh blood over dried blood  - due to the variables.  He or she might address "best" within the context of 'best case scenario.'  Under the 'best case scenario' - the uncompromised, properly collected and preserved DNA-rich sample---  Buccal, Fresh, Dried - in that order. 


Fresh can always be dried. 


Someone can correct me if I am wrong.  Then we can all contemplate the universe of DNA sample collection, including collection of atmospheric samples and time constraints.  lol

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

bump JIMROC