Off Duty Forums >> Politics >> Should teachers and administrators be allowed to carry concealed handguns on campus?

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Should teachers and administrators be allowed to carry concealed handguns on campus?

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What about a police presence on campuses? That would give the students and staff a more secure feeling. Then if trouble should arise, the police would already be there to intervene.


 

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BigNTS says ...



Cedardale says ...



Friend vs. foe needs to be addressed before policy is impemented.  Police must know that there are armed civilians in the school and armed civilians must know what to do when they encounter uniformed officer.  MY suggestion is for the civilian to lay their weapon down (do you really want to drop an expensive weapon) and let the police verify that they are not the bad guy, and for the police to tell an armed civilian to lay their weapon down.  Under no circumstance should ther good guy civilian even begin to point his weapon in the officrs direction, even if just to turn and see who is challanging them, a good way to get shot.  Thus if an armed civilian heas "POLICE, lay your gun down!" from behind him (s)he does so.  Prior training and policy is of the utmost importance.



Keep in mind we are talking about retired or off-duty officers working as subs. They are well-trained in plain-clothes identification when involved in armed encounters. 


In my opinion, Training is how you achieve consistency, and you train until it's second nature.


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VerleneDeDios says ...



What about a police presence on campuses? That would give the students and staff a more secure feeling. Then if trouble should arise, the police would already be there to intervene.


 



There was an officer on campus at Columbine when the shotting started.  These sick minds are not going to stop their destruction because an offi er is present.  Parents need to take an active role in these situations and become involved in their childrens lives by getting them help.


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Mr-natural_1__max50

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Here's another take--a letter to the editor to the Baltimore Sun that is short enough (IMO) for me to post in its entirety (good because I know many people are too lazy to copy and paste URLs from here). It's a good reminder that there are other issues to consider--issues that only educators have the expertise to address:


Putting armed guards in schools sends the wrong message


December 28, 2012


I appreciate the articles the sun has published on both sides of the gun control debate. As a person who has spent all of her adult professional life in elementary education, I hear the National Rifle Association's proposal to put armed guards in schools as a solution that doesn't address the many other shootings that occur elsewhere.


Those in education know what is meant by the "hidden curriculum." It is a side effect of education that is not formally taught but that students pick up from the norms, values and beliefs conveyed by the social environment of the classroom and the school.


What norms, values and beliefs would students pick up if every school had armed guards? I am certain we would be working toward building a military society, one in which no one can be trusted and everyone is a potential enemy.


Such a mentality may be good for the gun manufacturers, but I would not want to be responsible for producing a generation of young people who were unintentionally taught to live by the sword — or, in this case, the gun.


The NRA's proposed solution is not well thought through. It lacks wisdom and responsibility. It is protecting its turf when what is needed are ways to protect human lives.


That requires a comprehensive plan that addresses background checks before all gun sales, regulating the trafficking in guns and the kinds of guns that can be sold, and last but not least, expanding access to mental health care.


I would hate to believe that as Americans we can't find a better plan to reduce gun violence than by putting armed guards in every school.


Diane Bardol, Baltimore


 




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

Nqdz7m_max50

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Ms. Bardol's gun-control pitch invokes unwanted messages in school culture that promote the idea of a 'military society.'  Armed SROs are already commpnplace in schools. The message is good for kids  - "Police are approachable members of the community." 


It takes a village to protect a village.  And there are many ways to guard children.


Bardol's norms and beliefs belie a 'hidden curriculum.'  To Bardol, the look of a 'military society' is more detrimental than the actions of a military government. What's the #1item on that agenda? Disarm the Citizens. 


The rank and file of teachers are NOT going to publicly advocate concealed carry, for obvious reasons. Rest assured, behind the scenes, all manner of solutions are being discussed.


 


mz66 says ...



Here's another take--a letter to the editor to the Baltimore Sun that is short enough (IMO) for me to post in its entirety (good because I know many people are too lazy to copy and paste URLs from here). It's a good reminder that there are other issues to consider--issues that only educators have the expertise to address:


Putting armed guards in schools sends the wrong message


December 28, 2012


I appreciate the articles the sun has published on both sides of the gun control debate. As a person who has spent all of her adult professional life in elementary education, I hear the National Rifle Association's proposal to put armed guards in schools as a solution that doesn't address the many other shootings that occur elsewhere.


Those in education know what is meant by the "hidden curriculum." It is a side effect of education that is not formally taught but that students pick up from the norms, values and beliefs conveyed by the social environment of the classroom and the school.


What norms, values and beliefs would students pick up if every school had armed guards? I am certain we would be working toward building a military society, one in which no one can be trusted and everyone is a potential enemy.


Such a mentality may be good for the gun manufacturers, but I would not want to be responsible for producing a generation of young people who were unintentionally taught to live by the sword — or, in this case, the gun.


The NRA's proposed solution is not well thought through. It lacks wisdom and responsibility. It is protecting its turf when what is needed are ways to protect human lives.


That requires a comprehensive plan that addresses background checks before all gun sales, regulating the trafficking in guns and the kinds of guns that can be sold, and last but not least, expanding access to mental health care.


I would hate to believe that as Americans we can't find a better plan to reduce gun violence than by putting armed guards in every school.


Diane Bardol, Baltimore


 


Mr-natural_1__max50

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I grew up in a large midwestern city. I went to public school. We had SROs (usually moonlighting or retired sworn police officers). The SROs I've been exposed to were plainclothes with concealed weapons, nontimidating, approachable, etcetera.


I'm fairly certain neither the NRA nor Ms. Bardol were referring to SROs. 




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

Nqdz7m_max50

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I'm fairly certain anyone in dialogue - including the NRA and Ms Bardol - is also inferring the expanded use of SRO.  Folks who pretend the NRA isn't pointing out an extreme measure in order to spotlight the need for armed presence are simply fanning the gun control argument without much real committment to an effective solution.


Many children don't consider a uniformed and armed SRO to be intimidating, mz66.  Uniformed SRO are also approachable, even popular.

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mz66 says ...



Here's another take--a letter to the editor to the Baltimore Sun that is short enough (IMO) for me to post in its entirety (good because I know many people are too lazy to copy and paste URLs from here). It's a good reminder that there are other issues to consider--issues that only educators have the expertise to address:


 



The highlighted, bold print... Wow! Way to go, mz66!  Let the "many" folks here know what you think of them and how superior you are.


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Mr-natural_1__max50

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There's absolutely no judgment implied (at least on my part). I simply stated a fact. Many people here will not follow links.


Now, my first impulse was to say "bite me", but I was able to control myself. I guess that makes me superior...or something.


P.S. "Thanks" for adding to the discussion.




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

Nqdz7m_max50

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Whoops, came across as a criticism to me too, mz66.  Annnnd... it IS often true that folks are too lazy to follow links.  But we just don't SAY it.  Like we just don't saaay...


BITE ME!!


Do we?  lol

Mr-natural_1__max50

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Everything comes across as criticism to you, MarlyB <-- yes, that was criticism.




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

Nqdz7m_max50

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Come on, mz66, you read like a crankcase. It got noticed.  So, relax.


"Can't we all just get alonnnng??"  lol


Or....Come to think of it...maybe it would be a good idea to end this debate with a... FOOD FIGHTt!!!


Mr-natural_1__max50

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"And you are never wrong, of course."


When I intend to offend, you will know it (e.g. "bite me"). Otherwise, those offended are just a bunch of ants-in-pants with inferiority complexes swinging blindly. Oh, yes--I realize you might be offended by that statement, but again it is just a fact. If you take offense, maybe a salve on your hind end will sooth you--but you will not get sympathy from me.




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

Nqdz7m_max50

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Never wrong? Look, I'm as never wrong as the next guy.  That's ALL I'll give you.  lol


Sorry, you can't count ME among the offended!  I believe Donnalynn was just reminding everyone we are in polite company here in this corner of cyberspace.  Kind of.  heh heh. I would have liked to think you posted Bardol's quote as a convenience for your reader.  But  I know you better than that, mz66. You were grumblin', "Aw heckfire, this poops all over my brevity is the soul of wit image, DRAT!" 


Ah, the indignities. 


Speaking of the red-arsche, mz66, I can't detect YOURS from my astral position.  So maybe nobody's offended?


Am I...gasp... wrong???



 


mz66 says ...



"And you are never wrong, of course."


When I intend to offend, you will know it (e.g. "bite me"). Otherwise, those offended are just a bunch of ants-in-pants with inferiority complexes swinging blindly. Oh, yes--I realize you might be offended by that statement, but again it is just a fact. If you take offense, maybe a salve on your hind end will sooth you--but you will not get sympathy from me.


Nqdz7m_max50

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LET'S SETTLE THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!


Bronzestarribbon_max50

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No, but that is a decision left up to the individual states and the individual school boards...

Nqdz7m_max50

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(pulling spaghetti out of hair) 


CSIGUY STRIKES A BLOW FOR STATE RULE!!!  But hey now not so fast.  You are supposed to state WHY you think teachers should not carry concealed!

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MarlyB says ...

(pulling spaghetti out of hair) 


CSIGUY STRIKES A BLOW FOR STATE RULE!!!  But hey now not so fast.  You are supposed to state WHY you think teachers should not carry concealed!



12-31-12:
I have no issue with it really, but with the constitional open carry is concealed necessary? I know we can amp this up and go off on a mess of reasons. I simply state what it boils down to, but that is my opinion of what I think it boils down too, we all know what opinions are like. I do like a previous comment regarding the placement of retired cops or allowing cops to work in the schools outside of the already existing SRO programs. I beleive it was Nick, I agree put the retired Cops in the schools as School District Police and allow them to continue to serve if they are able and willing. This will help the unemployment rate within the country as well. Call it an LEO NEW DEAL...

Nqdz7m_max50

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LEO New Deal like the ring of that.  I am mulling this idea over.  One thing I like about it is that it is low-key.  The kids don't have to know. 

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 Teachers should not be forced to be armed, but I don't think its all that bad of an idea. I don't believe the armed teachers should be responsable for hunting down an active shooter, but be able to defend themselves and their students. They would obviously need training and certification standards in an ongoing basis. They would be need to be required to keep the handgun on them at all time, no putting it in a desk or filing cabinet.

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I do believe that it should be allowed and highly recommended "IF" they successfully complete a thorough handgun training program. Not just basic handgun safety, but also a handgun combat and marksmanship course as well.

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CMS says ...



 Teachers should not be forced to be armed, but I don't think its all that bad of an idea. I don't believe the armed teachers should be responsable for hunting down an active shooter, but be able to defend themselves and their students. They would obviously need training and certification standards in an ongoing basis. They would be need to be required to keep the handgun on them at all time, no putting it in a desk or filing cabinet.




Not allowing the teacher's new M16 to be placed in or on a desk next to the big red apple  


 



What doesn't kill me had better start running!

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 http://www.texastribune.org/texas-education/public-education/rep-villalba-allow-teachers-carry-concealed-guns/


 


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Donnalynn's link leads to this article in the Texas Tribune (Dec. 18, 2012), posted here for your convenience in case you'd like to quote and address specific points:


Villalba: Allow Teachers to Carry Concealed Guns

by Maurice Chammah


In response to last week's Connecticut school shooting, state Rep.-elect Jason Villalba, R-Dallas, says he will file legislation to allow public school teachers to carry concealed weapons while on campus.


The bill, which Villalba is calling the Protection of Texas Children Act, would permit Texas schools to appoint a member of their faculty as a "school marshal." The marshal, with training and certification, would be able to "use lethal force upon the occurrence of an attack in the classroom or elsewhere on campus," according to a press release from Villalba, a newly elected state representative.


“Unfortunately, law enforcement personnel cannot be everywhere at all times," Villalba said in a statement. "We need to talk very frankly about how we can protect our children if the unthinkable should occur."


Villalba's move is one of several Texas responses this week to the elementary school shooting that has rattled the nation. On Monday, Attorney General Greg Abbott said 78 Texas school districts do not meet state-mandated safety standards to protect students. Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson and U.S. Rep. Louie Gohmert, R-Tyler, have both said publicly that the events in Connecticut could have been avoided if school officials had been armed. And at an event in Tarrant County on Monday night, Gov. Rick Perrysuggested that local control should rule — and school districts should decide for themselves whether to allow their employees to carry firearms.


Under current Texas law, school districts can grant written permission for employees to carry firearms on campus. Harrold ISD, a district in northwest Texas with roughly 100 students, allows teachers to carry concealed handguns under what they call a "Guardian Plan," set up in the wake of the 2007 shooting at Virginia Tech.


David Thewatt, the district's superintendent, told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram that his district did not want a plan where you "lock yourself in your closet and hope that an intruder won't hurt you." As with Villalba's proposal, employees there must be approved by the school district in order to carry a concealed firearm.


The Texas Education Agency has no policy on concealed weapons in schools, and looks to local district attorneys to enforce current laws, agency spokeswoman DeEtta Culbertson said.


Villalba's proposal would create a training system for potential concealed-weapon holding employees of public schools, which would be paid for either by school districts or the employees themselves. Under his plan, there would be one armed employee for every 400 students, marshals who would be unidentifiable except to the school principal, law enforcement and school district administrators. The employees would purchase and maintain their own weapons.

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 I hear both side of this debate, but my thoughts are "absolutely not". I think there are other ways to address this very serious problem and teachers carrying is not one of them.

2007-2008_114_max600_max50

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No.  Hire a well trained security guard.  Or post an officer.


Have ASP will travel.

Justice is the one thing you should always find, you gotta saddle up your boys you gotta draw a hard line.

When the gun smoke settles we'll sing a victory tune and we'll all meet back at the local saloon.

And we'll raise up our glasses against evil forces singing whiskey for my men beer for my horses.