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Should teachers and administrators be allowed to carry concealed handguns on campus?

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mz66 says ...



I just want to clear the air. People should be allowed to state their opinions respectfully without getting a load of horse nuggets in return. If I sound angry, it's because I find this kind of behavior particular distasteful when it is someone on my very limited friends list. I call those people out--out of respect, because I expect and deserve better.


Matt,


i felt exactly the same way! You thoughts are no more important than mine or anybody! Arguments happen often by miscommunication or misunderstanding of ones intent. I do not expect my friends to agree with everything I say or how I say it.


Buttons were pushed, forget about and let's move on! Please pass the eggnog!



“The real reason that we can’t have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse: You cannot post “Thou shalt not steal,” “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” and “Thou shalt not lie” in a building full of lawyers, judges, and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment.”

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mz66 says ...



I didn't give anything. Here's an idea I'm willing to share: stop assuming you're seeing personal attacks everywhere.


Point to where I wasn't polite and professional and deserved the sarcasm I got in return. 



I agree with you, some people are seeing things and maybe should lay off the Eggnog. 


Now back to how to do it..  Each community would have to do their own threat assessment.  Each facility would have to be reviewed and secuirty measures put in place.  There should be at least an annual review as the schools are in most part the center of the community an as such change and evolve with the community.  Most of your major cities downsized the number of schools and will in the future with the growth of the population centers build new schools.  Like I said it is a constantly changing process.  In all cases an armed school personnel should be on file tih the local police.  With a photo ID.  Of course in the case of an event 1st responders would know that there are personnel in the school that are armed and that they will be following a planned response.  This coordination between the school personnel and the 1st responders with likely enhance the response, confuse the attacker and in the end save lives. 


In the real world schools participate in fire drills, why, because shools burned down and lives were lost.  I am certain that there will be resistance to this as most people believe that it won't happen here.  That's ok, you can agree with them, but what does it hurt to develope and implement a plan, just in case.  You're not increasing the public debt, you utilizing existing resources at a Micro level and fine tuning.  As they have always said, smooth is fast in a gun fight.  This tragedy and others like it are all about time, seconds, not minutes.  You pratice to what, reduce time, time can save lives.  Lives are what this is all about.

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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Nope, sorry.  The topic at hand became a cyber-baton rap to a joke meant to diffuse an ugly public display.  So let's address that first.


Some people need to lay off their own self-importance for five seconds.  The only Official Ringmaster to THIS show is the OP.


I do agree with Mongo in many respects.  There, I said it.  In cyber-space. Pass the eggnog.


I also agree HEARTILY with SS459's remarks.


 "Community assessment" is already being done in schools all over the country. But shhh...nobody's anouncing the details for obvious reasons.  In the real world, drills happen.  Regularly.  ID's get issued.  Meetings get held.  Teachers get assigned jobs like "School Morgue Coordinator." School communities plan with local police departments who, in best case scenarios, help script, stage and carry out situations in drills. These include fleeing youngsters banging on doors to be let in.  It all happens.


At least when schools got the dough.


It is NOT a question of pin-mapping the known universe to devise a standardized nation-wide plan.  It's about actually PAYING for local School/ District PD / Local PD coordinated efforts in YOUR schools.  That's organizing drills CUSTOMIZED to each school. That's PD led workshops and training.  That's appropriate psychological follow-up.  Remember the fleeing children banging on doors screaming to be let in?


So bust out your wallets!


Annnnd by the way... enough talk about hare-brained schoolteachers who can't find their way to the door.  Sounds a little too much like the kind of cop-baiting episodes that got popular in the press once our country's traditional teacher/cop alliance turned into a brawl over the public funds trough. 


It never was a question of one or the other.  It will ALWAYS remain a local issue to solve.  Just how will require our best creative minds working in collaboration.  That means LE defense paradigms must ALSO shift.


Can you dig THAT?!!


                              SKOL!! 



 


 


Mongo1 says ...



mz66 says ...



I didn't give anything. Here's an idea I'm willing to share: stop assuming you're seeing personal attacks everywhere.


Point to where I wasn't polite and professional and deserved the sarcasm I got in return. 



I agree with you, some people are seeing things and maybe should lay off the Eggnog. 


Now back to how to do it..  Each community would have to do their own threat assessment.  Each facility would have to be reviewed and secuirty measures put in place.  There should be at least an annual review as the schools are in most part the center of the community an as such change and evolve with the community.  Most of your major cities downsized the number of schools and will in the future with the growth of the population centers build new schools.  Like I said it is a constantly changing process.  In all cases an armed school personnel should be on file tih the local police.  With a photo ID.  Of course in the case of an event 1st responders would know that there are personnel in the school that are armed and that they will be following a planned response.  This coordination between the school personnel and the 1st responders with likely enhance the response, confuse the attacker and in the end save lives. 


In the real world schools participate in fire drills, why, because shools burned down and lives were lost.  I am certain that there will be resistance to this as most people believe that it won't happen here.  That's ok, you can agree with them, but what does it hurt to develope and implement a plan, just in case.  You're not increasing the public debt, you utilizing existing resources at a Micro level and fine tuning.  As they have always said, smooth is fast in a gun fight.  This tragedy and others like it are all about time, seconds, not minutes.  You pratice to what, reduce time, time can save lives.  Lives are what this is all about.


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Rated +1 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

 No was Jose!! 


There are way to many negatives that could happen with arming teachers. I might name some stuff that others have said before but I am going to mention them again anyways.


If the teacher is armed then like said before the possibility of getting that gun stolen is very high! Seriously you mention to these kids that teachers have guns somewhere in the classroom I guarantee that those kids will look and try to still those weapons. They may or may not use them in the school. They might might use them in the streets. No telling what will happen. Plus whats to say that a teacher will not flip out on a student and pull that gun or pull the gun to taunt the kids. What if a domestic despute comes into the school, will that teacher pull the gun? 


Also I want to know if that teacher can pull that gun if need be. Most teacher are connected to their students emotionally and have delt with those kids for 1-4 years. I think personally that a teacher will mostly likely cannot and probably will not fire that gun a child or anyone else. Teachers are not military or police officers. They are built and trained different then us leo's and military people. Teachers do not have the mind set that we do about weapons. Will they forget about the gun somewhere in the school or forget about picking it up? 


Then if they are armed then you have to put together some kind of program for them, which is gonna cost money and more time. Need to think about will the teacher be aloud to take home the gun? If they can take it home will it be secured? What will happen with that gun a home and being transported to and from the school. 


Next if you have an active shooter and the teacher is armed and they run out blazing with the gun to chase the suspect and I come into the school I do not need to be meet with multiple people coming down the hall with weapons in hand. It will not end pretty! \


Here is the fix to the problem, people lock your weapons up! Teach/Educate your kids about guns. And the government needs to supply more help to the mentally challanged. Also to the schools, lock them down. Put cameras up, allow one entrance in and out. Do not buzz someone in unless they have been checked thoroughly by the office. Next hire police officers for all schools elementary and up. My department has SRO's in every school, works out okay. If the money is the issue, let go some of the admin people. Most of them are not needed anyways.


You wouldn't go in there for a million bucks...A Cop does it for less...A Reserve does it for free....

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This. 


StrykerBrig21 says ...



 No was Jose!! 


(snip)


If the money is the issue, let go some of the admin people. Most of them are not needed anyways.

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MarlyB says ...



Nope, sorry.  The topic at hand became a cyber-baton rap to a joke meant to diffuse an ugly public display.  So let's address that first.


Some people need to lay off their own self-importance for five seconds.  The only Official Ringmaster to THIS show is the OP.


I do agree with Mongo in many respects.  There, I said it.  In cyber-space. Pass the eggnog.


I also agree HEARTILY with SS459's remarks.


 "Community assessment" is already being done in schools all over the country. But shhh...nobody's anouncing the details for obvious reasons.  In the real world, drills happen.  Regularly.  ID's get issued.  Meetings get held.  Teachers get assigned jobs like "School Morgue Coordinator." School communities plan with local police departments who, in best case scenarios, help script, stage and carry out situations in drills. These include fleeing youngsters banging on doors to be let in.  It all happens.


At least when schools got the dough.


It is NOT a question of pin-mapping the known universe to devise a standardized nation-wide plan.  It's about actually PAYING for local School/ District PD / Local PD coordinated efforts in YOUR schools.  That's organizing drills CUSTOMIZED to each school. That's PD led workshops and training.  That's appropriate psychological follow-up.  Remember the fleeing children banging on doors screaming to be let in?


So bust out your wallets!


Annnnd by the way... enough talk about hare-brained schoolteachers who can't find their way to the door.  Sounds a little too much like the kind of cop-baiting episodes that got popular in the press once our country's traditional teacher/cop alliance turned into a brawl over the public funds trough. 


It never was a question of one or the other.  It will ALWAYS remain a local issue to solve.  Just how will require our best creative minds working in collaboration.  That means LE defense paradigms must ALSO shift.


Can you dig THAT?!!


                              SKOL!! 



 


 


Mongo1 says ...



mz66 says ...



I didn't give anything. Here's an idea I'm willing to share: stop assuming you're seeing personal attacks everywhere.


Point to where I wasn't polite and professional and deserved the sarcasm I got in return. 



I agree with you, some people are seeing things and maybe should lay off the Eggnog. 


Now back to how to do it..  Each community would have to do their own threat assessment.  Each facility would have to be reviewed and secuirty measures put in place.  There should be at least an annual review as the schools are in most part the center of the community an as such change and evolve with the community.  Most of your major cities downsized the number of schools and will in the future with the growth of the population centers build new schools.  Like I said it is a constantly changing process.  In all cases an armed school personnel should be on file tih the local police.  With a photo ID.  Of course in the case of an event 1st responders would know that there are personnel in the school that are armed and that they will be following a planned response.  This coordination between the school personnel and the 1st responders with likely enhance the response, confuse the attacker and in the end save lives. 


In the real world schools participate in fire drills, why, because shools burned down and lives were lost.  I am certain that there will be resistance to this as most people believe that it won't happen here.  That's ok, you can agree with them, but what does it hurt to develope and implement a plan, just in case.  You're not increasing the public debt, you utilizing existing resources at a Micro level and fine tuning.  As they have always said, smooth is fast in a gun fight.  This tragedy and others like it are all about time, seconds, not minutes.  You pratice to what, reduce time, time can save lives.  Lives are what this is all about.



Bump Marly, I can dig it! We are running out of eggnog!  I'm headed out to pick up some more!


“The real reason that we can’t have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse: You cannot post “Thou shalt not steal,” “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” and “Thou shalt not lie” in a building full of lawyers, judges, and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment.”

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StrykerBrig21 says ...



 No was Jose!! 


There are way to many negatives that could happen with arming teachers. I might name some stuff that others have said before but I am going to mention them again anyways.


If the teacher is armed then like said before the possibility of getting that gun stolen is very high! Seriously you mention to these kids that teachers have guns somewhere in the classroom I guarantee that those kids will look and try to still those weapons. They may or may not use them in the school. They might might use them in the streets. No telling what will happen. Plus whats to say that a teacher will not flip out on a student and pull that gun or pull the gun to taunt the kids. What if a domestic despute comes into the school, will that teacher pull the gun? 


Also I want to know if that teacher can pull that gun if need be. Most teacher are connected to their students emotionally and have delt with those kids for 1-4 years. I think personally that a teacher will mostly likely cannot and probably will not fire that gun a child or anyone else. Teachers are not military or police officers. They are built and trained different then us leo's and military people. Teachers do not have the mind set that we do about weapons. Will they forget about the gun somewhere in the school or forget about picking it up? 


Then if they are armed then you have to put together some kind of program for them, which is gonna cost money and more time. Need to think about will the teacher be aloud to take home the gun? If they can take it home will it be secured? What will happen with that gun a home and being transported to and from the school. 


Next if you have an active shooter and the teacher is armed and they run out blazing with the gun to chase the suspect and I come into the school I do not need to be meet with multiple people coming down the hall with weapons in hand. It will not end pretty! \


Here is the fix to the problem, people lock your weapons up! Teach/Educate your kids about guns. And the government needs to supply more help to the mentally challanged. Also to the schools, lock them down. Put cameras up, allow one entrance in and out. Do not buzz someone in unless they have been checked thoroughly by the office. Next hire police officers for all schools elementary and up. My department has SRO's in every school, works out okay. If the money is the issue, let go some of the admin people. Most of them are not needed anyways.



True,  I can only speak about my school district; one that has deep pockets.  They will settle a lawsuit they can win just to make it go away. There is no way on God's green earth anyone other than police will be allowed to carry a firearm in the parking lot, let alone on campus! Yet, they will not pay their police the salary they deserve and are leaving in droves! There are admin people supervising admin people who are supervising other admin people. Bump Dave and Marly on that!


There are teachers that are capable of handling a firearm. Both my sister (non-military) and daughter-in-law (Ex-military) especially are more than qualified to carry and defend herself and others against a threat to her elementary school students. I am not sure but I hope that she would be able to take out a student or fellow employee that she knows. Other threats are a gimme for her!


Oh, here the students are packing as well so the challenge is greater!


Marly, there has been a run on eggnog as if they were high capacity magazines, they are out of eggnog please share if you have any left!


“The real reason that we can’t have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse: You cannot post “Thou shalt not steal,” “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” and “Thou shalt not lie” in a building full of lawyers, judges, and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment.”

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ssu459 says ...



Oh a huge AMEN to you Marly.Everywhere I have worked in my life is top heavy with admin. people.Too many chiefs,not enough braves.I fear,especially in the present economy that this entire problem will be found cost prohibitive.A bandade will be applied and the beat will go on,as it has after Va, Tech,Colorado,etc.,etc.



A few years ago the local paper ran a comparsion between a Catholic school and a public school, with about the same number of students in each.  The Catholic school had one administrator and the public had 17 administrators.  Consider that public school administrators are generally better paid than teachers (or cops) and you can figure out where the money goes.

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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Welcome to the District Admin Mushroom Cloud detonated by legions of No Child Left Behind Standardized Education Bean-Counters.  What do you think happened once we taxpayers started lording a Federally-Funded Curriculum Lock-Step over the profession?  All the administrators marshalled to protect their jobs! Extracting THAT debacle is like pulling a sring out of a budgetary coconut.


Ever since the media pilloried teachers...cuts to Special Ed, cuts to Early Childhood Education, cuts to the Humanities, History, Arts and anything else that makes a responsible, well-rounded, voiced, young voting population.  Just Say NO...to EVERYTHING including creative solutions to site-hardening and armed intruder response.


California is a case in point for the pittance it spends on classroom expenses per capita. 


Yet legions of dedicated teachers show up each day knowing some nutbag may blow their heads off just for a newspaper headline. 

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Rated +1 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

im sure someone has said this already. of course they should but only once they are properly trained and meet requirements of law enforcement. of course the much cheaper and eaiser way. is for the state and county to stop being cheap put SRO in each school. cutting corners leads to danger.

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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Yep I whole heartedly agree. We could easily trim down some of the administration or pony up some dough to put SROs in place. I know the county basically stations its constables at schools and they conduct their day to day tasks from their. Still leaves gaps through the day when they are on call but its a step in the right direction. The only point I still disagree on is that teachers would have their guns stolen and thus shouldn't carry. It shouldn't ever become public knowledge that somebody conceal carries. To publicize that information is reckless and they shouldn't be carrying to begin with.  More thorough training should be something any chl holder actively seeks. Hopefully this would combat being disarmed or worse collateral damage  because they suddenly decide to go navy seal on the situation. And lastly that weapon should never leave their side. Gun lockers in a school is just an invitation for trouble, its like a big red button with a sign that says "do not push". This is a all just my personal opinion and idealy school security should be left to the professionals.


Funny how the only enumerated right that contains the phrase "shall not be infringed" suffers the heaviest regulation. I'm still trying to find where it says anything about hunting and targets.

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SlowMotion says ...



Yep I whole heartedly agree. We could easily trim down some of the administration or pony up some dough to put SROs in place. I know the county basically stations its constables at schools and they conduct their day to day tasks from their. Still leaves gaps through the day when they are on call but its a step in the right direction. The only point I still disagree on is that teachers would have their guns stolen and thus shouldn't carry. It shouldn't ever become public knowledge that somebody conceal carries. To publicize that information is reckless and they shouldn't be carrying to begin with.  More thorough training should be something any chl holder actively seeks. Hopefully this would combat being disarmed or worse collateral damage  because they suddenly decide to go navy seal on the situation. And lastly that weapon should never leave their side. Gun lockers in a school is just an invitation for trouble, its like a big red button with a sign that says "do not push". This is a all just my personal opinion and idealy school security should be left to the professionals.



IMO gun lockers are a terrible idea.   A source of weapons for a nut job with no weapons and a pry bar or bolt cutters.  Built in combination lock you say.  Forget the combination in the stress of an active shooter situation?  Probably end up posting the combination near the locker in a 'hidden' location, which would soon be known to all I'll bet.

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Hmmm...I see Cedardale's point.  Of course, many teachers have military experience.  Yet they are few and far between.  That leaves the SRO and his sidearm(?)...himself without back-up at the critical juncture - perhaps far from the intrusion point and initial crisis. 


Seems like a lot to ask of a lone LEO in the ensuing minutes. 


Cedardale says ...



SlowMotion says ...



Yep I whole heartedly agree. We could easily trim down some of the administration or pony up some dough to put SROs in place. I know the county basically stations its constables at schools and they conduct their day to day tasks from their. Still leaves gaps through the day when they are on call but its a step in the right direction. The only point I still disagree on is that teachers would have their guns stolen and thus shouldn't carry. It shouldn't ever become public knowledge that somebody conceal carries. To publicize that information is reckless and they shouldn't be carrying to begin with.  More thorough training should be something any chl holder actively seeks. Hopefully this would combat being disarmed or worse collateral damage  because they suddenly decide to go navy seal on the situation. And lastly that weapon should never leave their side. Gun lockers in a school is just an invitation for trouble, its like a big red button with a sign that says "do not push". This is a all just my personal opinion and idealy school security should be left to the professionals.



IMO gun lockers are a terrible idea.   A source of weapons for a nut job with no weapons and a pry bar or bolt cutters.  Built in combination lock you say.  Forget the combination in the stress of an active shooter situation?  Probably end up posting the combination near the locker in a 'hidden' location, which would soon be known to all I'll bet.


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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

The idea of placing a firearm on the same conceptual level as a fire extinguisher, AED, or first aid kit has a whole host of problems that has already been well covered in this thread.


Why not keep it at "could carry"? However, I favor making the requirements for "could carry" more stringent. More disqualifiers, better background checks, a certification that emphasizes safety and security (such as making sure the weapon is readily accessible to the permit holder and the permit holder only), and a yearly recertification on the same standards (including the background check). 


Mongo1 says ... 



There is the Universe between Should and Could.  If we really want to do something let's keep it at Could Carry.  That limits the field to those that have the moral courage to use violence for good (defending the children).  Most people do not have that and to require someone like that to be armed is  a tactical error, giving deadly force to bad actors.  Most people are Heroic and do force the hand of evil without hesitation or thought of self.  Sandy Hook was full of Hero's, just no guns.



 




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

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Rated +1 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

 The problem isn't guns. The problem is the hearts and minds of people. You can't fight evil with more guns. This is a spiritual war and we are still trying to fight it with carnal weapons.


I'm married to the LORD..no prenup

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Romans_116 says ...



 The problem isn't guns. The problem is the hearts and minds of people. You can't fight evil with more guns. This is a spiritual war and we are still trying to fight it with carnal weapons.



I agree that guns are not the problem.  Some people are just evil and therefore probably Godless, without any hope of redemption.  These are the people we have to guard against and be very vigilant for.  They are not easy to detect, resist treatment, and usually attack savagely  without warning.  Even the Best Watch Dog takes a nap, that's why you have Two Watch Dogs

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Rated +1 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Romans_116 says ...



 The problem isn't guns. The problem is the hearts and minds of people. You can't fight evil with more guns. This is a spiritual war and we are still trying to fight it with carnal weapons.



I agree with you 100%.  It's the evil in our culture that we need to learn how to deal with.  You can ban the guns all day long, but it's still going to happen.  Until we get the mental health system on board and teach everyone how to sopt these issues before they happen, we are not going to stop it.  It's like spotting a person who is suicidal, which most of these people are, we need to learn how to spot them and no what to do when we see these symptoms cropping up.  This has to be everyones job, not just the police or mental health professionals.  Tough situation we have here.  Guns are just a tool of choice.  If you dont have a wrench you will use a pair of pliers to do the job.


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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

I just heard that  Purdue University is considering the end of 4-H shooting Sports, as a result of Sandy Hook.  A program that requires children to attend and pass three weekends of Hunter Safety classes.  In a word "Crazy".

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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

I was a substituer teacher for 18 years in grades pre thru 12, duing that time I often thought of ways that I could take out the schools, if I were a suspect wanting to. Especially, since there would be no way for the people to defend themselves and law enforcement would take too get there. In my community as well as many others we cannot afford to have SROs at every school, and even if we did the SRO may be at the ohter end of the school. I also thought about the fact that if I were allowed to carry my concealed weapon on campus how much of an advantage I would have in protecting the students in my care as well as other faculty.


Not all faculty should be allowed to carry a gun, but therre are many good responsible ones that could without any problems at all. Most of these already have their CCW license. A few of these already keep the firearm in their vehicle, but what are the odds of them getting to it in time? I do believe that more extensive training should be required in order to carry on school grounds and those wishing to carry should receive the advanced training. There are many teachers that stay after hours into the dark as well as go in on weekends: these teachers are sitting ducks for someone wishing to do any kind of harm to them. I do feel that if a teacher or other faculty member was to carry a weapon, it needs to be on them and concealed, so that none of the students would have any idea that they are armed. I also feel there should be documentation for both the principals and the police as to whom may have firearms on them.


Not all teachers are sheep, there are few that are sheepdogs and could end the situation if they had the means. In case you are wondering I am a Reserve Deputy Sheriff and work at the Sheriff's Office so I have seen both sides of the situation and know what actually goes on inside the schools. There are those at the schools that I would trust with my life, however there are the ones that don't need to be armed because they are either afraid of guns or could not pull the trigger. For every person this would need to be a personal choice, but those wishing to go thrugh advance training an d feel they could take a life should be allowed to carry. Just because a person is a teacher or works at the schools does not mean they are inadequate to protect with a firearm.

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Rated +1 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

 This is a very interesting (and needed) discussion. I've read the posts and responses (maybe not thoroughly - some of you can go on) and would like to throw out another suggestion and see your feedback....


New Jersey has some of the most restricitve gun controls laws in the country. So much so that even a retired LEO must agree to an additional background check and registration process prior to getting permission to carry. Recently, due in large part to the current state administration, there has been a substantial increase in the number of retirements in the LE community. Many of these newly retired officers attempt to move on to new careers and I've found quite a few who have gone on to employment in educational positions. Particularly as substitute teachers in public schools. 


How about this...


Hire these newly retired officers as substitutes and give them permission to possess their firearm while in school. There would be a financial benefit for the district in that they are not paying just to have an armed person on the property. These teachers will already have been through rigorous firearms training. They are required to qualify at least twice a year (including handgun retention). They are already vetted by the State Police. They have training in active shooter drills. I'm sure there are more points - I'm just spitballing here.


Just a thought...


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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

BigNTS says ...



 This is a very interesting (and needed) discussion. I've read the posts and responses (maybe not thoroughly - some of you can go on) and would like to throw out another suggestion and see your feedback....


New Jersey has some of the most restricitve gun controls laws in the country. So much so that even a retired LEO must agree to an additional background check and registration process prior to getting permission to carry. Recently, due in large part to the current state administration, there has been a substantial increase in the number of retirements in the LE community. Many of these newly retired officers attempt to move on to new careers and I've found quite a few who have gone on to employment in educational positions. Particularly as substitute teachers in public schools. 


How about this...


Hire these newly retired officers as substitutes and give them permission to possess their firearm while in school. There would be a financial benefit for the district in that they are not paying just to have an armed person on the property. These teachers will already have been through rigorous firearms training. They are required to qualify at least twice a year (including handgun retention). They are already vetted by the State Police. They have training in active shooter drills. I'm sure there are more points - I'm just spitballing here.


Just a thought...



Nice thought!


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Kinda bumps the duty day / pay requirements of the Substitue Teacher up a notch, doesn't it?  I mean, being that they are at-will employees working without benefits for something around $120 a day or less in a lot of places.

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MarlyB says ...



Kinda bumps the duty day / pay requirements of the Substitue Teacher up a notch, doesn't it?  I mean, being that they are at-will employees working without benefits for something around $120 a day or less in a lot of places.



 


True, Marly. But consider the idea that many of these retirees are already working as subs for the going rate. It would require a bump in pay of the current sub rate for those who agree to the terms and accept the responsibility. I've spoken to some who would be interested in doing this. In my case, I don't need benefits and I'm already getting paid (through my pension) this would be a supplement to it. This wouldn't necessarily be limited to retirees. Active LEOs can do this also. As long as they receive the proper clearances from their agencies.


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The bump in pay idea works for me, BigNTS. Schools contract with vendors offering special services all the time (after school latch-key programs, etc.) Besides it would bring more respect to the position being that nobody would know which substitutes are carrying concealed and which are not.


Looks like you got a good idea for a business.  Fire up the Batphone!


BigNTS says ...



MarlyB says ...



Kinda bumps the duty day / pay requirements of the Substitue Teacher up a notch, doesn't it?  I mean, being that they are at-will employees working without benefits for something around $120 a day or less in a lot of places.



 


True, Marly. But consider the idea that many of these retirees are already working as subs for the going rate. It would require a bump in pay of the current sub rate for those who agree to the terms and accept the responsibility. I've spoken to some who would be interested in doing this. In my case, I don't need benefits and I'm already getting paid (through my pension) this would be a supplement to it. This wouldn't necessarily be limited to retirees. Active LEOs can do this also. As long as they receive the proper clearances from their agencies.


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MarlyB says ...



The bump in pay idea works for me, BigNTS. Schools contract with vendors offering special services all the time (after school latch-key programs, etc.) Besides it would bring more respect to the position being that nobody would know which substitutes are carrying concealed and which are not.


Looks like you got a good idea for a business.  Fire up the Batphone!


BigNTS says ...



MarlyB says ...



Kinda bumps the duty day / pay requirements of the Substitue Teacher up a notch, doesn't it?  I mean, being that they are at-will employees working without benefits for something around $120 a day or less in a lot of places.



 



True, Marly. But consider the idea that many of these retirees are already working as subs for the going rate. It would require a bump in pay of the current sub rate for those who agree to the terms and accept the responsibility. I've spoken to some who would be interested in doing this. In my case, I don't need benefits and I'm already getting paid (through my pension) this would be a supplement to it. This wouldn't necessarily be limited to retirees. Active LEOs can do this also. As long as they receive the proper clearances from their agencies.



 


I'm working on that as we speak. My biggest hurdle is getting the school to accept the idea and have the Board of Ed adjust their policy against firearms in the school. I have a meeting on the 4th to present a proposal. 




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BigNTS says ...



 This is a very interesting (and needed) discussion. I've read the posts and responses (maybe not thoroughly - some of you can go on) and would like to throw out another suggestion and see your feedback....


New Jersey has some of the most restricitve gun controls laws in the country. So much so that even a retired LEO must agree to an additional background check and registration process prior to getting permission to carry. Recently, due in large part to the current state administration, there has been a substantial increase in the number of retirements in the LE community. Many of these newly retired officers attempt to move on to new careers and I've found quite a few who have gone on to employment in educational positions. Particularly as substitute teachers in public schools. 


How about this...


Hire these newly retired officers as substitutes and give them permission to possess their firearm while in school. There would be a financial benefit for the district in that they are not paying just to have an armed person on the property. These teachers will already have been through rigorous firearms training. They are required to qualify at least twice a year (including handgun retention). They are already vetted by the State Police. They have training in active shooter drills. I'm sure there are more points - I'm just spitballing here.


Just a thought...



An excellent thought worth exploring! My only issue is how to identify friend from foe!


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Friend vs. foe needs to be addressed before policy is impemented.  Police must know that there are armed civilians in the school and armed civilians must know what to do when they encounter uniformed officer.  MY suggestion is for the civilian to lay their weapon down (do you really want to drop an expensive weapon) and let the police verify that they are not the bad guy, and for the police to tell an armed civilian to lay their weapon down.  Under no circumstance should ther good guy civilian even begin to point his weapon in the officrs direction, even if just to turn and see who is challanging them, a good way to get shot.  Thus if an armed civilian heas "POLICE, lay your gun down!" from behind him (s)he does so.  Prior training and policy is of the utmost importance.

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Cedardale says ...



Friend vs. foe needs to be addressed before policy is impemented.  Police must know that there are armed civilians in the school and armed civilians must know what to do when they encounter uniformed officer.  MY suggestion is for the civilian to lay their weapon down (do you really want to drop an expensive weapon) and let the police verify that they are not the bad guy, and for the police to tell an armed civilian to lay their weapon down.  Under no circumstance should ther good guy civilian even begin to point his weapon in the officrs direction, even if just to turn and see who is challanging them, a good way to get shot.  Thus if an armed civilian heas "POLICE, lay your gun down!" from behind him (s)he does so.  Prior training and policy is of the utmost importance.



Keep in mind we are talking about retired or off-duty officers working as subs. They are well-trained in plain-clothes identification when involved in armed encounters. 


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Cedardale says ...



Friend vs. foe needs to be addressed before policy is impemented.  Police must know that there are armed civilians in the school and armed civilians must know what to do when they encounter uniformed officer.  MY suggestion is for the civilian to lay their weapon down (do you really want to drop an expensive weapon) and let the police verify that they are not the bad guy, and for the police to tell an armed civilian to lay their weapon down.  Under no circumstance should ther good guy civilian even begin to point his weapon in the officrs direction, even if just to turn and see who is challanging them, a good way to get shot.  Thus if an armed civilian heas "POLICE, lay your gun down!" from behind him (s)he does so.  Prior training and policy is of the utmost importance.



Keep in mind we are talking about retired or off-duty officers working as subs. They are well-trained in plain-clothes identification when involved in armed encounters. 


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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Easy ID would be a vest in a fluorescent color. they are light weight and easily slipped over any type of clothing.  I know, who's going to take the time to put on a vest.  Just thinking out loud.  Maybe that'll spark a better idea from someone.


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