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Should teachers and administrators be allowed to carry concealed handguns on campus?

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Batman_max600_1__max50

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I just talked to a School Adminstrator in our area and we had this same conversation. He is trying to get permission from his school board to be able to carry concealed in the school. Thsi school is minimum of 30 minutes away from L.E. So by the time we get there it is gonna be a mop up and not stopping the threat. I told him that he woudld be resonsible for letting all of the Officers in our area to know who he is so he does not become part of the problem. My greatest fear is parents showing up with weapons and becoming part of the problem also. Good discussion.


Bad stuff happens to good people, handle it and overcome.
My motto for life:
Let go and let GOD,
Only HE can control everything.

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Beowulf_7 says ...



Catwoman911 says ...



denise65 says ...



Catwoman911 says ...



Ok, so first we arm Teachers.. next, do we arm personnel in the Movie Theaters as well?  NO.. we wouldn't. 


This would be a catastrophy.  Think about all the training and evaluations a Police Officer has to endure.  So, then, are we saying that a Teacher wouldn't be able to teach if they couldn't pass those evaluations because they wouldn't be able to carry a weapon?  What if some pass the qualifications and others do not?  Do you arm a few of them only; the ones who passed? 


Just a few things to think about.



Dude, I totally disagree with you.  Arming a few is better than none.  If I'm not mistaken you have to have a clean record in order to teach.  I did when I was a substitute.  I'll call you.  We'll talk more about it.



Dude.. you can disagree with me.. that's fine.  We all have our own opinions.  Call me.. it is always good to talk to you, but you won't change my mind on this



Personal opinions are great!  However an opinion is only as good as the information it is based upon.  Some of the arguments presented in both this and the other thread (not so much by you) are based upon inaccurate information and arrogance.  That's what we called in sales. . . ."Stinkin' Thinkin'" and that is no way to make important decisions or form opinions.




"Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives." - Ronald Reagan

Christmas_2010_038_max50

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I tried to get the robotics club to design and develope a computerized airsoft program that could be programed.  We would then market it and roll the dough back into the Club.  The School board got as far as "GUN" and that was the end of the project.  They have had teachers arrested for having Archery equipment, in their car, on school grounds, during hunting season.


There is always a knee jerk reaction from our Educational Leaders.  You would think that our Scholars would recognize the Symbiotic relation between, Youth and Violence.  As a society we ignore mental health issues and are fearful of being wrong, when it comes to dealing with that hot topic.  Yet we suffer the consequences of our failures every day.  It is a direct result of our litigious society.  If your crazy you have an automatic defense.  I just pushed a guy infront of a train and well I am crazy, so it's ok.  You (Society) need to help me and fix me.  I rape children, but I am Crazy, don't punish me, help me.  God gave us free will and perhaps we cannot fix these people, but we should not be afraid to Identify them.  WE are so hung up on Labels or Profiles that we have now painted ourselves in the corner.  We as a society have become inept and dysfunctional.  Then we task Law Enforcement to do somehting about it.  Protect us, but do it economically.  There was a time when our nations law enforcement knew what was going on, now we are isolated, no partner and a growing population.


It is more economical to put a gunlocker in the class room, make it a combination lock.  Just in case a psycho jumps him or her in class to get the key.  If a teacher goes through cerification for conceal carry let him.  Everyone knows that the best defense is a strong offense.  If the actor knows he has to shoot his way through locked doors and security, his element of suprise is gone and there will be an appropriate response.  These people choose schools and Churchs because people will be unarmed, otherwise they would be shooting their way into police stations.  I am just as certain that the Officers did everything they could and given the horror of the Sandy Hook School, would have gladly spent some time at the range with teachers, going over, safety, tactics and marksmanship.  I know I would be happy to train them and come out of retirement.


 

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Beowulf_7 says ...



With all due respect to those that have posted, I am 1000% FOR allowing teachers to be armed IF they choose to arm themselves AND only under guidelines set in place by the school board.  Yes, the guidelines. . . .or Standard Operating Procedures, would be worked out with the local police/sheriff's department(s) and approved of by the local prosecuting attorney or State's Attorneys General if the local prosecuting attorney does not wish to work with them.  Harold Independent School District in Texas just began allowing their teachers to carry IF they so desire. . . .not mandatory.  Why?  Because they are located in such a place that the nearest police department is a 30 minute drive away.  How many kids can be killed in 30 minutes????


Why?  From the time an incident is started until the police can be called, arrive, formulate a response and begin deploying. . . . .what, 10, 15 maybe 20 minutes?  All depending upon how coordinated the calls, radio calls, if officers are even available (not on some other high priority call) and then how far away the officers were.  Once there, do they go in alone or wait until another officer arrives?  How has the response to this been taught?  How much information do the officers have upon arrival?  The questions go on and on. . . . .  Also, with all of the cutbacks. . .but more students, most schools do not have the money to pay for a police officer or even a security guard to stand post at the school during the course of the day.


No, teachers, like a security guard at their protected property, know who belongs and who does not.  Can more quickly determine who is a threat and who is not than the officer who is not there everyday.  AND, they are ALREADY THERE!  If nothing more than to lock down their classroom and shoot whomever comes through the classroom door without giving the super secret squirrel knock (being a little mellow dramatic here).


Not to push anyone buttons here, but I think it is a little on the arrogant side to believe that police officers are the only ones that can handle a situation like what happened in Connecticut or Colorado or. . .where ever else these issues have turned up.  Let us at least admit that while police officers can do a lot to help people. . . . .calling 911 is USUALLY nothing more than calling the clean up crew.  In the area I worked, by the time we arrived on scene, in MOST of the situations that occurred the deed had been done, the perpetrator had already left OR the scene had settled into a stalemate or barricaded gunman situation which is completely different than these school shootings and we all know why there.  The school shooter is looking for some type of glory (usually) that they could not get in life and the barricaded gunman has an agenda where they USUALLY do not want to kill anyone, they just want something in their life to change . . . . some how or some way.


No, I will support the arming of the teachers (that have been properly vetted), that choose to take up arms to save our children.  Response time is sooo much quicker than any police officer could EVER begin to be.



BUMP! 


I couldnt have  said this better Beuwolf.


I do differ on this: I dont think the opposition speaks out of arrogance though, I get it.  Its fear. Giving teachers, administrators.. weapons is a scary thought.  But unfortunately its one we are now faced with. I have a school age child and speaking as a mom, I am apprehensive about teachers having firearms in the classrooms/schools. On the other hand looking at it from the LE side-I say train them so they at least have a fighting chance until LE arrive at the scene. 


This is a tough one. But like some others have said, these maniacs go into places like these because they know that no one is armed. Start armng some teachers, and lets see what happens.

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Mongo1 says ...



...........EDITED..........


They have had teachers arrested for having Archery equipment, in their car, on school grounds, during hunting season.


............EDITED............


 



This is good...... When I was in high school (many years ago), we had an archery class as a PE class.  We also had a fencing class (and no it was not learning how to build a fence).  Back then, if you were in the Boy Scouts, you also carried your Boy Scout pocket knife.  How times have changed.

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Bump to that Skoolcop. When I went to school there were guns hanging in the back window of every pickup in the parking lot. No one thought to bring one in and use it on others. It is called respect. There is not enough of that going around anymore. God help us that we can maybe get back to the good ole days.


Bad stuff happens to good people, handle it and overcome.
My motto for life:
Let go and let GOD,
Only HE can control everything.

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gudercop says ...



Bump to that Skoolcop. When I went to school there were guns hanging in the back window of every pickup in the parking lot. No one thought to bring one in and use it on others. It is called respect. There is not enough of that going around anymore. God help us that we can maybe get back to the good ole days.



BTW..... I took a theft report about a year or two back.  The victim was one of our district maintenance workers.  His POV was broken in to while he was out and about doing his job.  He lost about $2000 in archery equipment used for hunting.

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I waited a while to chime in and believe that teachers who wish to carry be permitted with the foollowing restrictions.  Additional training beyound a CCW, training specifically aimed at deaing with an active shooter in a crowded enviroment.  Second that the  weapon be carried concealed on the peson, not in purse, man purse, lunch bucked, ect.  As skoolcop noted they are absent minded teachers who who  lose their posteriors if they weren't attached.

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SkoolCop says ...



NO WAY!!!!!!!! I wouldn't trust  a single teacher or administrator with a firearm.  I take too many theft reports from teachers and administrators already because of their carelessness.  They leave their own property as well as district property laying around and wonder why it grows feet and walks away.  Add a firearm into the equation and you have the recipe for disaster....... and armed juvenile or unauthorized adult on campus.  NO WAY!!!!!!!!


Bump, Ron, Michelle, Denise, UncleD!  Just another knee jerk reaction! Like repealing the 2nd Amendment, arming teachers instead of hiring more cops, passing stricter guns laws for law abiding citizens, instead of enforcing or tweaking  the laws already on the books and actually prosecuting and convicting criminals with harsher punishments!


God forbid a teacher who flips out, misplaces or their firearm falls into the hands of a student. This subject comes up after every school shooting.  Yet, no new cops are hired to handle the problem. Pilots  great idea until one flipped out on a plane recently. Thank God he did not use his weapon in a confined space if he had one.


Israel is not America  and there is no comparison, yet according to the poster teachers with firearms did not prevent 8 deaths, once the police arrives everyone with a firearm is subject to being shot and probably will be!


 I  would be more interested in hearing what actual school districts and especially those with a police department have to say about this issue. Everything sounds good until you have to deal with it!


Sounds good until something negative happens as a result of them being armed! 


All advocates of this should police a school for a week and I bet they will have second thoughts about this issue. 


Good luck with that one but it will never happen in my school district, did I say NEVER! 


Otherwise, Good luck with that but be careful of what you ask for in your schools!


 



 


“The real reason that we can’t have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse: You cannot post “Thou shalt not steal,” “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” and “Thou shalt not lie” in a building full of lawyers, judges, and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment.”

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snhadley says ...



SkoolCop says ...



NO WAY!!!!!!!! I wouldn't trust  a single teacher or administrator with a firearm.  I take too many theft reports from teachers and administrators already because of their carelessness.  They leave their own property as well as district property laying around and wonder why it grows feet and walks away.  Add a firearm into the equation and you have the recipe for disaster....... and armed juvenile or unauthorized adult on campus.  NO WAY!!!!!!!!


Bump, Ron, Michelle, Denise, UncleD!  Just another knee jerk reaction! Like repealing the 2nd Amendment, arming teachers instead of hiring more cops, passing stricter guns laws for law abiding citizens, instead of enforcing or tweaking  the laws already on the books and actually prosecuting and convicting criminals with harsher punishments!


God forbid a teacher who flips out, misplaces or their firearm falls into the hands of a student. This subject comes up after every school shooting.  Yet, no new cops are hired to handle the problem. Pilots  great idea until one flipped out on a plane recently. Thank God he did not use his weapon in a confined space if he had one.


Israel is not America  and there is no comparison, yet according to the poster teachers with firearms did not prevent 8 deaths, once the police arrives everyone with a firearm is subject to being shot and probably will be!


 I  would be more interested in hearing what actual school districts and especially those with a police department have to say about this issue. Everything sounds good until you have to deal with it!


Sounds good until something negative happens as a result of them being armed! 


All advocates of this should police a school for a week and I bet they will have second thoughts about this issue. 


Good luck with that one but it will never happen in my school district, did I say NEVER! 


Otherwise, Good luck with that but be careful of what you ask for in your schools!


 



 



In my humble opinion. . . . .and not to piss off anyone else here it is just my opinion, but after having spent 16 1/2 years as a trooper, working in an area that according to the crime statistics rank 1 & 2 as the most dangerous cities in the nation (Flint and Detroit MI), met plenty of teachers among other people that have concealed weapons permits, hunters and those that carry openly. . . . . .to deny those that have the lives of our most precious commodity, the ability to defend our children. . . .and themselves, it a rather narrow minded and matter of factly, a self righteous attitude that does nothing to further a legitimate discussion of this issue.  This post also addresses the other thread of snhadley's which had a poll in the beginning as he has indirectly addressed it here by bringing up the same points here as he did in that one.


1:  Yes, this whole issue is a knee jerk reaction to an incident that while devastating to all of us. . . .still does not compare to the 4,000 pound weapons most of us have had the opportunity to operate and kills more people in a year than any other weapons put together.  Yet, we have no intentions of having a debate on restricting the use of automobiles.


2:  Yes, we need to enforce the laws that we already have.


3:  No, we are not Israel.  Israel has more human designed death and destruction than America will ever see.  What with suicide bombers blowing up school buses and trains and malls and. . . . .well, I'm pretty sure that suicide bombers have targeted just about every soft target imaginable in Israel.  BUT. . . .you wanted comparisons yet you dismiss a legitimate comparison all because it does not fit in with your agenda. . . .yes, YOUR AGENDA!  If you wanted to have a legitimate conversation you wouldn't poo-poo this comparison because they know how to deal with this type of crime and we don't. . . . .yet you do.


4:  How many police officers have "flipped out"?  Look at what happened in New Orleans during Katrina with officers becoming judge and jury out on the street.  How many times has that happened?  Yet, you believe that police officers are the only ones capable of protecting out children.  The facts are not on your side.


5:  You suggested hire more police.  Have you been catching the news lately?  Villages, cities, counties and states are BROKE!  Where do they get the money to hire new officers?  Up taxes on the citizens even more?  You remember the citizens, many of whom are unemployed. . . .right?  At what point do they revolt?  How much is too much?


6:  You have yet to address response times.  How responsible is that in a supposed honest discussion when during that response time, how many of our children and teachers can be killed?  Oh yeah, 26!  Who stopped the tradgedy?  Oh yeah, the shooter took his own life!  How about Virginia Tech. . . .how many died there?  Oh yeah, 32!  How long did it last?  Oh yeah, 2 1/2 hours!  Cho started in one dormitory killed a couple of people, WENT TO HIS ROOM AND CHANGED CLOTHES and then returned to complete his task and killed 30 more people!  Who stopped him?  Oh yeah, he took his own life!  You tell me how many of these incidents have been stopped by the police.  Columbine?  Nope!  Shooters took themselves out while the police were trying to figure out how to enter the building.  How many times have the police saved our children?  Tell me!  Better yet, admit to yourself that 911 is nothing better than the cleanup crew.  THEN we might begin to have an honest conversation about who gets to protect our children.  Those that are right there at the action AS IT IS HAPPENING or those that are going to take a minimum of 5 minutes to more than 30 minutes to just arrive and THEN put a plan into place (based on officers there and what scenarios they had trained for) before even entering the building.


7:  You asked for schools that do allow their teacher to carry weapons.  Harold, Texas where the Superintendent stated ON CAMERA for the news crew something to the effect of, if this happens here the police should only have to worry about bringing 1 body bag. . . .not 26.  That one body bag is for the shooter and not our kids.  Do a google search and report back as to which school districts allow them and who don't.  You asked, I found and you ignored.  Does that sound like someone that wants an honest dialogue?


I started out trying to bring to light possibilities but was summarily slapped down by you in your other thread, the one with the poll at the beginning.  I was told that I took a scorched earth view afterwards and even had one of my posts deleted by the Sarge because, as he said. . .that while the post was legit, I threw in a sucker punch at the end.  And that little tirade of yours gets left in when it was ALL pointed at me?  No, there was never an attempt at an honest conversation in that thread.  Just like in D.C., they have their own little agendas going and we, the honest public are going get our butts handed to us because of a bunch of knee jerkers. . .I mean knee jerk reactionaries that are just trying to get some face time to secure their next election. . . .nothing more.


You talked about the high road earlier (just after your tirade).  Yes, I have taken a few pot shots along the way myself.  This post is nothing but the high road.  Let's see if you you will travel the high road also.


I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them.

John Bernard Books, from "The Shootist"

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snhadley says ...



SkoolCop says ...



NO WAY!!!!!!!! I wouldn't trust  a single teacher or administrator with a firearm.  I take too many theft reports from teachers and administrators already because of their carelessness.  They leave their own property as well as district property laying around and wonder why it grows feet and walks away.  Add a firearm into the equation and you have the recipe for disaster....... and armed juvenile or unauthorized adult on campus.  NO WAY!!!!!!!!


Bump, Ron, Michelle, Denise, UncleD!  Just another knee jerk reaction! Like repealing the 2nd Amendment, arming teachers instead of hiring more cops, passing stricter guns laws for law abiding citizens, instead of enforcing or tweaking  the laws already on the books and actually prosecuting and convicting criminals with harsher punishments!


God forbid a teacher who flips out, misplaces or their firearm falls into the hands of a student. This subject comes up after every school shooting.  Yet, no new cops are hired to handle the problem. Pilots  great idea until one flipped out on a plane recently. Thank God he did not use his weapon in a confined space if he had one.


Israel is not America  and there is no comparison, yet according to the poster teachers with firearms did not prevent 8 deaths, once the police arrives everyone with a firearm is subject to being shot and probably will be!


 I  would be more interested in hearing what actual school districts and especially those with a police department have to say about this issue. Everything sounds good until you have to deal with it!


Sounds good until something negative happens as a result of them being armed! 


All advocates of this should police a school for a week and I bet they will have second thoughts about this issue. 


Good luck with that one but it will never happen in my school district, did I say NEVER! 


Otherwise, Good luck with that but be careful of what you ask for in your schools!


 



 



This is a interesting and very valid point.......  Arming a pilot on an airline is one thing........ It is clear who the "GOOD GUYS" are because it is the pilot and his or her crew (wearing distinctive uniforms) that are the ones who will be landing the plane.  By that time, the incident will have already ended.  But what if an event of this magnitude played out and teachers / administrators are armed?  How do you identify them as far as "GOOD GUY / BAD GUY?  What does a crazed gunman (or woman) look like?  They may be kevlared up like the two shooters in the North Hollywood (California) bank robbery.  They may be in trench coats such as those worn by the suspects in Columbine.  They may look like every day citizens in normal clothing including clothing worn by teachers and administrators as well as parents or students.  As Steven said, this puts ALL people carrying guns in this school scenario at risk of being shot by us..... the GOOD GUYS.  This is a very real probability.  If I am responding to the scene while on duty, I am readily identified by my distinctive police uniform.  If I am off duty, picking up or dropping off my child for example, and fecal matter just happens to hit the fan at the same time, my badge helps to identify me from said bad guys in addition to other outside markers I will be able to dawn that are clearly marked "POLICE."


Also mentioned...... What if as teacher or administrator flips out?  We have had teachers involved in extramarital affairs with other teachers at the same school that have resulted in domestic violence issues when the other party finds out that their spouse has been cheating with another co-worker.  We have had teachers and other employees that have been treated unfairly by a superior and have lost their tempers, creating a disturbance on the campus.  We have had teachers, historically cool under most conditions, snap because a student got under his or her skin.  Do we really want to introduce a firearm into these pictures?  I don't.


Never mind these issues.  We, as trained LE come under increased scrutiny with each incident we handle when lethal force is used.  Our actions are and will always come under fire.  Now enter teacher or administrator...... They are trained (which means btw, that a standard needs to be in place) sort of.  An incident may never occur or it may be a long time from now when it does and a teacher or administrator becomes part of the incident.  Everyone knows that the training of said teacher or administrator will now come into question and under intense scrutiny.


Regardless the scenario..... I see liability issues of epic proportions arming teachers and and administrators.

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SkoolCop says ...



snhadley says ...



SkoolCop says ...



NO WAY!!!!!!!! I wouldn't trust  a single teacher or administrator with a firearm.  I take too many theft reports from teachers and administrators already because of their carelessness.  They leave their own property as well as district property laying around and wonder why it grows feet and walks away.  Add a firearm into the equation and you have the recipe for disaster....... and armed juvenile or unauthorized adult on campus.  NO WAY!!!!!!!!


Bump, Ron, Michelle, Denise, UncleD!  Just another knee jerk reaction! Like repealing the 2nd Amendment, arming teachers instead of hiring more cops, passing stricter guns laws for law abiding citizens, instead of enforcing or tweaking  the laws already on the books and actually prosecuting and convicting criminals with harsher punishments!


God forbid a teacher who flips out, misplaces or their firearm falls into the hands of a student. This subject comes up after every school shooting.  Yet, no new cops are hired to handle the problem. Pilots  great idea until one flipped out on a plane recently. Thank God he did not use his weapon in a confined space if he had one.


Israel is not America  and there is no comparison, yet according to the poster teachers with firearms did not prevent 8 deaths, once the police arrives everyone with a firearm is subject to being shot and probably will be!


 I  would be more interested in hearing what actual school districts and especially those with a police department have to say about this issue. Everything sounds good until you have to deal with it!


Sounds good until something negative happens as a result of them being armed! 


All advocates of this should police a school for a week and I bet they will have second thoughts about this issue. 


Good luck with that one but it will never happen in my school district, did I say NEVER! 


Otherwise, Good luck with that but be careful of what you ask for in your schools!


 



 



This is a interesting and very valid point.......  Arming a pilot on an airline is one thing........ It is clear who the "GOOD GUYS" are because it is the pilot and his or her crew (wearing distinctive uniforms) that are the ones who will be landing the plane.  By that time, the incident will have already ended.  But what if an event of this magnitude played out and teachers / administrators are armed?  How do you identify them as far as "GOOD GUY / BAD GUY?  What does a crazed gunman (or woman) look like?  They may be kevlared up like the two shooters in the North Hollywood (California) bank robbery.  They may be in trench coats such as those worn by the suspects in Columbine.  They may look like every day citizens in normal clothing including clothing worn by teachers and administrators as well as parents or students.  As Steven said, this puts ALL people carrying guns in this school scenario at risk of being shot by us..... the GOOD GUYS.  This is a very real probability.  If I am responding to the scene while on duty, I am readily identified by my distinctive police uniform.  If I am off duty, picking up or dropping off my child for example, and fecal matter just happens to hit the fan at the same time, my badge helps to identify me from said bad guys in addition to other outside markers I will be able to dawn that are clearly marked "POLICE."


Also mentioned...... What if as teacher or administrator flips out?  We have had teachers involved in extramarital affairs with other teachers at the same school that have resulted in domestic violence issues when the other party finds out that their spouse has been cheating with another co-worker.  We have had teachers and other employees that have been treated unfairly by a superior and have lost their tempers, creating a disturbance on the campus.  We have had teachers, historically cool under most conditions, snap because a student got under his or her skin.  Do we really want to introduce a firearm into these pictures?  I don't.


Never mind these issues.  We, as trained LE come under increased scrutiny with each incident we handle when lethal force is used.  Our actions are and will always come under fire.  Now enter teacher or administrator...... They are trained (which means btw, that a standard needs to be in place) sort of.  An incident may never occur or it may be a long time from now when it does and a teacher or administrator becomes part of the incident.  Everyone knows that the training of said teacher or administrator will now come into question and under intense scrutiny.


Regardless the scenario..... I see liability issues of epic proportions arming teachers and and administrators.



We really do not need to Politicise this.  Basic security is defense in depth.  Period.  If we really want to protect our children, and that is the Stated Goal, then Defense in Depth.  Physical Plants, threat assessments, resources and the Community are all Critical issues that can be brought togeather.  Not What DC is doing, that's all Politics and as we already know, DC is the last source for problem solving.

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Catwoman911 says ...



Beowulf_7 says ...



Catwoman911 says ...



denise65 says ...



Catwoman911 says ...



Ok, so first we arm Teachers.. next, do we arm personnel in the Movie Theaters as well?  NO.. we wouldn't. 


This would be a catastrophy.  Think about all the training and evaluations a Police Officer has to endure.  So, then, are we saying that a Teacher wouldn't be able to teach if they couldn't pass those evaluations because they wouldn't be able to carry a weapon?  What if some pass the qualifications and others do not?  Do you arm a few of them only; the ones who passed? 


Just a few things to think about.



Dude, I totally disagree with you.  Arming a few is better than none.  If I'm not mistaken you have to have a clean record in order to teach.  I did when I was a substitute.  I'll call you.  We'll talk more about it.



Dude.. you can disagree with me.. that's fine.  We all have our own opinions.  Call me.. it is always good to talk to you, but you won't change my mind on this



Personal opinions are great!  However an opinion is only as good as the information it is based upon.  Some of the arguments presented in both this and the other thread (not so much by you) are based upon inaccurate information and arrogance.  That's what we called in sales. . . ."Stinkin' Thinkin'" and that is no way to make important decisions or form opinions.




Well it's a good thing none of us are the one's that make the important decisions.  We just form opinions and discuss them.


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I see many good points on both sides of this debate, so just a couple of questions, If I may. 


The following is an assessment, and my question is,


"Should this  Teacher/G./Counselor  be bumped down even if they are competent enough to adhere to the school's safety procedures, but are not willing to carry a rifle on them in the classroom?"


Isn't having a good "Guidance" Counselor a counter attack on future violence? 


Lastly, what next?  In a high volume entertainment complex, should we start madating all 4,000 of the contracted  food service employees become professional snipers?


Just asking ?


 



What doesn't kill me had better start running!

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 Can we all atleast agree gun free zones need to be abolished? Then and only then can we come to the table with the best course to protect people. We can kick this debate around until the end of time without ever addressing the roots.


 


We put police in school next lunatic guns down said officer as part of his rampage. We arm teachers and a case of negligence or poor judgement surfaces. There will always be pros and cons to each argument but we need to address theis at its core and that is too many schoools have no form of resistance or protection at all. or at the very least not enough.


Funny how the only enumerated right that contains the phrase "shall not be infringed" suffers the heaviest regulation. I'm still trying to find where it says anything about hunting and targets.

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John Caile wrote this statement:  "...these same people who barely raise an eyebrow at the idea of armored car guards carrying guns to protect bags of cash, suddenly go apoplectic over the prospect of teachers carrying guns to protect young children.  If that's not misplaced priorities, I dont know what is." 


Oh how true he was...it is an absolute disservice to the parents in this country to NOT allow teachers to protect our children.  As stated above, we allow individuals to carry guns to protect cash, but not our children?  Why?  I can not, for the life of me, figure this one out.  I am 100% in favor of allowing those teachers/individuals that we entrust to teach our children to protect them with a firearm.  Yes, there are scenarios that may bring fear to others, i.e. a student getting a gun or a teacher "flipping out."  However, there are always risks in everything that people are involved with.  Driving a car, walking on the street, etc...


It is sad when so many people think its wrong to protect innocent children, in turn allowing them to die. 


The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun.

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jar6489 says ...



John Caile wrote this statement:  "...these same people who barely raise an eyebrow at the idea of armored car guards carrying guns to protect bags of cash, suddenly go apoplectic over the prospect of teachers carrying guns to protect young children.  If that's not misplaced priorities, I dont know what is." 


Oh how true he was...it is an absolute disservice to the parents in this country to NOT allow teachers to protect our children.  As stated above, we allow individuals to carry guns to protect cash, but not our children?  Why?  I can not, for the life of me, figure this one out.  I am 100% in favor of allowing those teachers/individuals that we entrust to teach our children to protect them with a firearm.  Yes, there are scenarios that may bring fear to others, i.e. a student getting a gun or a teacher "flipping out."  However, there are always risks in everything that people are involved with.  Driving a car, walking on the street, etc...


It is sad when so many people think its wrong to protect innocent children, in turn allowing them to die. 


The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun.



AMEN!


I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them.

John Bernard Books, from "The Shootist"

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jar6489 says ...



John Caile wrote this statement:  "...these same people who barely raise an eyebrow at the idea of armored car guards carrying guns to protect bags of cash, suddenly go apoplectic over the prospect of teachers carrying guns to protect young children.  If that's not misplaced priorities, I dont know what is." 


Oh how true he was...it is an absolute disservice to the parents in this country to NOT allow teachers to protect our children.  As stated above, we allow individuals to carry guns to protect cash, but not our children?  Why?  I can not, for the life of me, figure this one out.  I am 100% in favor of allowing those teachers/individuals that we entrust to teach our Schildren to protect them with a firearm.  Yes, there are scenarios that may bring fear to others, i.e. a student getting a gun or a teacher "flipping out."  However, there are always risks in everything that people are .involved with.  Driving a car, walking on the street, etc...


It is sad when so many people think its wrong to protect innocent children, in turn allowing them to die. 


The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun.


So jar6489, By your logic my Daughter(s) "priorities" are misplaced b/c their not comfortable with "taking out" an active shooter in a room filled with tear gas?  Do you also assume that my daughter(s) would do nothing to protect whom they call "their" kids?     A bit of a preconceived notion, and really bad assumption. I can betcha they can take  most boys if they had to. mmmkay.
Saving lives will require teamwork, and my daughter(s) have NO problem with LEO's on site.  I'm also going to trust their judgement,  I accept their fears of handling a weapon in a situtuation where the room could possibly fill with confused first responders trained as snipers.  Another factor, they would worry about shooting the wrong person by accident! 
Oh, and as far as me,  I do handle "cash", at my job which is practically three jobs in one.  I'm not a cashier, not going into detail. However, I trust the LEO's I work with to handle a 'bad' situation, MORE then I trust myself. Again Teamwork.  Or do you suggest we add 800 rifles to cover 4,000 employees.  Later my employer can just get rid of the Troopers and the PT LEO's as I hand out guns like they were peanuts at a pre shift meeting.
Oh, speaking of peanuts!  we're getting brand new peanuts at the stadium soon.  Now I heard if you put one in your left pocket, you'll stay warm throughout the whole event!!  Gotta get everyone to buy one of these.  They're simply amazing!
Oh wait, some people are allergic to peanuts,, and have even caused their death.  Hmmm..
I'll pass on the Taliban Teacher Theory, this is America.  Or so I thought.


What doesn't kill me had better start running!

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LonnaNJ says ...



jar6489 says ...



John Caile wrote this statement:  "...these same people who barely raise an eyebrow at the idea of armored car guards carrying guns to protect bags of cash, suddenly go apoplectic over the prospect of teachers carrying guns to protect young children.  If that's not misplaced priorities, I dont know what is." 


Oh how true he was...it is an absolute disservice to the parents in this country to NOT allow teachers to protect our children.  As stated above, we allow individuals to carry guns to protect cash, but not our children?  Why?  I can not, for the life of me, figure this one out.  I am 100% in favor of allowing those teachers/individuals that we entrust to teach our Schildren to protect them with a firearm.  Yes, there are scenarios that may bring fear to others, i.e. a student getting a gun or a teacher "flipping out."  However, there are always risks in everything that people are .involved with.  Driving a car, walking on the street, etc...


It is sad when so many people think its wrong to protect innocent children, in turn allowing them to die. 


The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun.


So jar6489, By your logic my Daughter(s) "priorities" are misplaced b/c their not comfortable with nuetralizing an active shooter in a room filled with tear gas?  Do you also assume that my daughter(s) would do nothing to protect whom they call :their" kids? If so, then I'll tell you, the above statement in which you agree with, charactorizating all people the same is WRONG..
My daughter(s) have NO problem with LEO's on site.  I also trust their judgement, as well as accept their fears of handling a weapon in a room with possibly confused LEO's.  AND, for the most part, their MORE afraid they would shoot the wrong person! 
Oh, and as far as me,  I do handle "cash", at my job which is practically three jobs in one.  I'm not a cashier, not going into detail. However, I trust the LEO's I work with to handle a 'bad' situation, MORE then I trust myself.
Oh, we're getting brand new peanuts at the stadium soon.  Now I heard if you put one in your left pocket, you'll stay warm throughout the whole event!!  Gotta get everyone to buy one of these.  They're simply amazing!
Oh wait, some people are allergic to peanuts,, and have even caused their death.  Hmmm..
I'll pass on the Taliban Teacher Theory, this is America.  Or so I thought.


Lonna, you chose to create one possible scenario. . . .but that scenario has nothing to do with what he said.  If you will take the time to read further he states, ". . .it is an absolute disservice to the parents in this country to NOT allow teachers to protect our children. As stated above, we allow individuals to carry guns to protect cash, but not our children? Why?".  The key word in his statement is "allow".  Nobody has said that they wanted to "force" guns into the teachers hands. . . . .but "allow" teachers to carry IF they so desired.  I even went further and said that guidelines had to be put in place that both the school district AND local prosecutor had approved.  No different than a police department.


I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them.

John Bernard Books, from "The Shootist"

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I edited for clarity, and yes my feathers are a little ruffled.


WIth two daughters in this profession and a (younger) aunt, I'm sure you understand my concerns.


I'm starting to get the feel that people want  this mandated b/c of a kneejerk reaction to Newton.


My case, in short.  Not everyone going into the Teaching field is going to be Gun Savy, Nor are they going to opt to carry for several different reasons.  Doesn't mean they wouldn't do everything in their power to protect children, they have motherly instincts and they could probably take out some boys in a boxing match.  lol.


But seriously, I've brought them up to trust officers, but that doesn't mean their fit to be one. All I'm saying.


What doesn't kill me had better start running!

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I think teachers and administrators should carry. I am in law enforcement and feel that who better knows the schools than teachers and principals. A shooter can get 4 rounds out in 1 second. Think of the average time it takes law enforcement to get to the scene. How many kids/staff would die waiting for law enforcement. We as officers had no knowledge or experience on  dealing with active shooters until we had the proper training. It is no difference in teachers and principals. With the proper training they can be just as effective until law enforcement arrives. They definitely need the proper identification so law enforcement knows they are on our side but that should not be a problem.  

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explorer_rpd says ...



I think teachers and administrators should carry. I am in law enforcement and feel that who better knows the schools than teachers and principals. A shooter can get 4 rounds out in 1 second. Think of the average time it takes law enforcement to get to the scene. How many kids/staff would die waiting for law enforcement. We as officers had no knowledge or experience on  dealing with active shooters until we had the proper training. It is no difference in teachers and principals. With the proper training they can be just as effective until law enforcement arrives. They definitely need the proper identification so law enforcement knows they are on our side but that should not be a problem.  



There is the Universe between Should and Could.  If we really want to do something let's keep it at Could Carry.  That limits the field to those that have the moral courage to use violence for good (defending the children).  Most people do not have that and to require someone like that to be armed is  a tactical error, giving deadly force to bad actors.  Most people are Heroic and do force the hand of evil without hesitation or thought of self.  Sandy Hook was full of Hero's, just no guns.

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Mongo1 says ...



explorer_rpd says ...



I think teachers and administrators should carry. I am in law enforcement and feel that who better knows the schools than teachers and principals. A shooter can get 4 rounds out in 1 second. Think of the average time it takes law enforcement to get to the scene. How many kids/staff would die waiting for law enforcement. We as officers had no knowledge or experience on  dealing with active shooters until we had the proper training. It is no difference in teachers and principals. With the proper training they can be just as effective until law enforcement arrives. They definitely need the proper identification so law enforcement knows they are on our side but that should not be a problem.  



There is the Universe between Should and Could.  If we really want to do something let's keep it at Could Carry.  That limits the field to those that have the moral courage to use violence for good (defending the children).  Most people do not have that and to require someone like that to be armed is  a tactical error, giving deadly force to bad actors.  Most people are Heroic and do force the hand of evil without hesitation or thought of self.  Sandy Hook was full of Hero's, just no guns.


 


You said that better then I could explain it


Now I just drove my daughters nuts on the phone asking them, WHAT' KINDA PROTECTION YOU GOT AT THAT SCHOOL?  lol


The Suberban School=Automatic Door locks-Buzzer-Handscan


The School in Detroit=Security Guards(possibly part timing LEO's),  she believes their armed? She also mentioned a cage, but I think she meant a gate.


 


 



What doesn't kill me had better start running!

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The question was asked specifically about teachers being able to carry in schools. But really, doesn't it boil down to the more basic question of whether citizens have a right to carry firearms for their protection in general? I certainly don't think someone that is put in charge of children should carry a gun with no training whatsoever. But why shouldn't someone who is willing to get the training be allowed to carry in a school when they can do so most other places. It seems to me that the discussion should be under what conditions (how much training should be required) teachers should be allowed to carry, rather than IF they should be allowed to carry. Of course there are people of the opinion that no one should be allowed to carry a gun. I don't expect anyone like that to ever be for letting teachers carry. But, if you don't oppose the existence of concealed carry permits, then I don't understand how you can support a total blanket ban on carrying in a school unless you're a cop.


Side note: Since the issue of armored car guards carrying guns "to protect cash" was brought up. I am an armored car guard. And under no circumstances would I ever be allowed to use my gun to defend money. However, anyone who robs me is likely to do so with the use or threat of force against me personally. That gun is there to protect me and nothing else. If the messenger is being robbed, they are actually supposed to throw the money bag as far away from themselves as possible. The hope being that a robber will be more interested in the money than the guard. At that point if the guard is no longer being directly threatened, then they have zero justification for deadly force(or any other kind of force).

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Rated +2 | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Every law abiding citizen has the right to carry a gun no matter of it's at the mall, church or school.  If they want to carry concealed they should get a permit to do so. 


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Mongo1 says ...



explorer_rpd says ...



I think teachers and administrators should carry. I am in law enforcement and feel that who better knows the schools than teachers and principals. A shooter can get 4 rounds out in 1 second. Think of the average time it takes law enforcement to get to the scene. How many kids/staff would die waiting for law enforcement. We as officers had no knowledge or experience on  dealing with active shooters until we had the proper training. It is no difference in teachers and principals. With the proper training they can be just as effective until law enforcement arrives. They definitely need the proper identification so law enforcement knows they are on our side but that should not be a problem.  



There is the Universe between Should and Could.  If we really want to do something let's keep it at Could Carry.  That limits the field to those that have the moral courage to use violence for good (defending the children).  Most people do not have that and to require someone like that to be armed is  a tactical error, giving deadly force to bad actors.  Most people are Heroic and do force the hand of evil without hesitation or thought of self.  Sandy Hook was full of Hero's, just no guns.



I agree, I'm not saying just force a gun in someone's hands and tell them to handle business but lets face it a good majority of teachers/administrators have an interest in guns and some already have their concealed handgun permit. The ones who wish to carry in the school and have the proper training should be allowed to carry if they wish to. I think people would think twice about going into a school if there is a chance that people are in there armed. Most offenders want an easy target/victim. They don't want any struggle.

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Yes.  Come to think of it make it rifles in lock boxes in the classroom.  To one side of the snack refrigerator.


And puhleeze bring back the Vice Principal's paddle with the holes cut in to cut the wind resistance!  Break out the District Spanking Machine, clean of the cobwebs, oil it and fire it up... regularly!  (these days it's only used on adults).


Put High School Seniors back in charge of hazing masses of obnoxious ninth graders in order to keep the school climate sane.


The whole problem should be taken care of by June, 2013. lol


 

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MarlyB says ...



Yes.  Come to think of it make it rifles in lock boxes in the classroom.  To one side of the snack refrigerator.


And puhleeze bring back the Vice Principal's paddle with the holes cut in to cut the wind resistance!  Break out the District Spanking Machine, clean of the cobwebs, oil it and fire it up... regularly!  (these days it's only used on adults).


Put High School Seniors back in charge of hazing masses of obnoxious ninth graders in order to keep the school climate sane.


The whole problem should be taken care of by June, 2013. lol


 


Hey now i grew up with all that and i turned out all right. maybe not a model citizen but certainly not in jail or the ground. Ya might be on to something tharr!



Funny how the only enumerated right that contains the phrase "shall not be infringed" suffers the heaviest regulation. I'm still trying to find where it says anything about hunting and targets.

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I am leaning towards Yes..Its going to happen because not every department can afford to put a Police Officer in the Schools.


I love each day like its my last! Why do we are have to be so serious?

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Mongo1 says ...



SkoolCop says ...



snhadley says ...



SkoolCop says ...



NO WAY!!!!!!!! I wouldn't trust  a single teacher or administrator with a firearm.  I take too many theft reports from teachers and administrators already because of their carelessness.  They leave their own property as well as district property laying around and wonder why it grows feet and walks away.  Add a firearm into the equation and you have the recipe for disaster....... and armed juvenile or unauthorized adult on campus.  NO WAY!!!!!!!!


Bump, Ron, Michelle, Denise, UncleD!  Just another knee jerk reaction! Like repealing the 2nd Amendment, arming teachers instead of hiring more cops, passing stricter guns laws for law abiding citizens, instead of enforcing or tweaking  the laws already on the books and actually prosecuting and convicting criminals with harsher punishments!


God forbid a teacher who flips out, misplaces or their firearm falls into the hands of a student. This subject comes up after every school shooting.  Yet, no new cops are hired to handle the problem. Pilots  great idea until one flipped out on a plane recently. Thank God he did not use his weapon in a confined space if he had one.


Israel is not America  and there is no comparison, yet according to the poster teachers with firearms did not prevent 8 deaths, once the police arrives everyone with a firearm is subject to being shot and probably will be!


 I  would be more interested in hearing what actual school districts and especially those with a police department have to say about this issue. Everything sounds good until you have to deal with it!


Sounds good until something negative happens as a result of them being armed! 


All advocates of this should police a school for a week and I bet they will have second thoughts about this issue. 


Good luck with that one but it will never happen in my school district, did I say NEVER! 


Otherwise, Good luck with that but be careful of what you ask for in your schools!


 



 



This is a interesting and very valid point.......  Arming a pilot on an airline is one thing........ It is clear who the "GOOD GUYS" are because it is the pilot and his or her crew (wearing distinctive uniforms) that are the ones who will be landing the plane.  By that time, the incident will have already ended.  But what if an event of this magnitude played out and teachers / administrators are armed?  How do you identify them as far as "GOOD GUY / BAD GUY?  What does a crazed gunman (or woman) look like?  They may be kevlared up like the two shooters in the North Hollywood (California) bank robbery.  They may be in trench coats such as those worn by the suspects in Columbine.  They may look like every day citizens in normal clothing including clothing worn by teachers and administrators as well as parents or students.  As Steven said, this puts ALL people carrying guns in this school scenario at risk of being shot by us..... the GOOD GUYS.  This is a very real probability.  If I am responding to the scene while on duty, I am readily identified by my distinctive police uniform.  If I am off duty, picking up or dropping off my child for example, and fecal matter just happens to hit the fan at the same time, my badge helps to identify me from said bad guys in addition to other outside markers I will be able to dawn that are clearly marked "POLICE."


Also mentioned...... What if as teacher or administrator flips out?  We have had teachers involved in extramarital affairs with other teachers at the same school that have resulted in domestic violence issues when the other party finds out that their spouse has been cheating with another co-worker.  We have had teachers and other employees that have been treated unfairly by a superior and have lost their tempers, creating a disturbance on the campus.  We have had teachers, historically cool under most conditions, snap because a student got under his or her skin.  Do we really want to introduce a firearm into these pictures?  I don't.


Never mind these issues.  We, as trained LE come under increased scrutiny with each incident we handle when lethal force is used.  Our actions are and will always come under fire.  Now enter teacher or administrator...... They are trained (which means btw, that a standard needs to be in place) sort of.  An incident may never occur or it may be a long time from now when it does and a teacher or administrator becomes part of the incident.  Everyone knows that the training of said teacher or administrator will now come into question and under intense scrutiny.


Regardless the scenario..... I see liability issues of epic proportions arming teachers and and administrators.



We really do not need to Politicise this.  Basic security is defense in depth.  Period.  If we really want to protect our children, and that is the Stated Goal, then Defense in Depth.  Physical Plants, threat assessments, resources and the Community are all Critical issues that can be brought togeather.  Not What DC is doing, that's all Politics and as we already know, DC is the last source for problem solving.



“The real reason that we can’t have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse: You cannot post “Thou shalt not steal,” “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” and “Thou shalt not lie” in a building full of lawyers, judges, and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment.”

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