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WHAT HAPPENED TO CRAZY?

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Somegiveall_max160_max160_max50

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Posted almost 2 years ago

 

WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO CRAZY? I would invite my friends here to go on youtube and view chris rocks comedy special"BIGGER AND BLACKER", i have watched this show a few times and find it and chris quite entertaining,  and it starts with chris telling how he was just that day, entering an elevator in his hotel when 2 young white boys tried to enter with him and he quickly jumped out. I am afraid of young white boys, chris says, what is going on with young white boys today, shooting up schools, and they aint even waiting till 3 oclock, shooting people in schools in the morning, that just aint right, I AINT AFRAID OF ALQUEDA, says chris,i'm from brooklyn, I'm afraid of AL-CRACKER. Crazy white boys. WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO CRAZY? YOU CANT BE CRAZY NO MORE? DID WE ELIMINATE CRAZY FROM THE DICTIONARY? When i was little, chris relates, crazy kids went to school in a little bus, stayed in a corner of the school and left at 2:30 rather than 3 oclock, just in case they went crazy, they would only hurt other crazy kids.  BY THE WAY, THIS VIDEO IS A FEW YEARS OLD.


I am sure by now the reader will recognize why, in response to recent  horrific shootings especially in connecticut, i have started this discussion. I am not a psycologist, therapist, or even a teacher..I have read on this subject of emotionally disturbed children in the many forums online dealing with such. In the case of the Newtown shooter, we have a 20 year old,  not attending school, whose parent removed him from school because and i quote from the aunt "adams mom pulled him out of the newtowns public schools over a dispute with the districts plan for her son. She wound up home schooling him. As of friday the 14th, this 20 year old is not attending school nor working? pray tell, what is this young man doing?


I quote from an online article writted  by a special education lawyer from connecticut"whether a student requires special education or related services has nothing to do with how smart they are. (see further quotes marked with asterik) These students show an emotional disturbance-which are one or more of the following characteristics: 1-inability to learn that cannot be explained by intellectual, sensory or health factors 2-inability to build or maintain interpersonal relationships with peers or teachers 3-inappropriate types of behaviors or feelings 4-pervaisive mood of unhappiness or depression 5-tendency to develop physical symtoms or fears associated with personal or school problems.


THIS KID SHOT HIS MOTHER IN THE FACE AND THEN FORCIBLY ENTERED A SCHOOL ARMED AND DRESSED FOR COMBAT, SHOT AND KILLED 6 ADULTS AND 20 CHILDREN.


*he was just quiet, he didnt put off a friendly vibe-from a former classmate


*he sortof vanished, fell off the radar in middle school


*reports adam had personality disorder symptoms by people who knew the mother had a TROUBLED SON


*mother was handling a difficult situation with UNCOMMON GRACE


*a neighbor reports THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH HIM


*a college age boy who knew the shooter says "he was very  thin, very remote, was one of the GOTHS


*Adam lanza had been diagnosed with aspergers, experts say there is NO LINK BETWEEN ASPERGERS AND  VIOLENT BEHAVIOR-evidently  there is.


*it appears the hero principle and psychologist who were killed, were at the time, in a meeting addressing behavior issues of another student


*THE SCHOOL DISTRICT HEAD OF SECURITY, who served as an advisor for a group the shooter attended states "he clearly had some disabilities. If that boy would have burnt himself, he would have not known it or felt it physically. IT WAS MY JOB TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THAT".


*from an aunt-HE WAS DEFINATELY THE CHALLENGE OF THE FAMILY


*a relative told law enforcement, he had a case of autism


*another relative states, he was very very bright, but had issues with learning


     I am sure alot more will come of this case and the shooters motives and behaviors, i am posting this, i guess, to say that there are crazy people who need more than a personal aide to sit with them in classroom,  to be given special diplomas, to be made to feel good. There are many reasons we know of and dont know of that causes people to be as they are but does that mean they, and their behaviors are safe in our society?


YOUR COMMENTS AND INPUT PLEASE, and please be kind.


 

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Rated +1 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

I may be the only way to think this way but what if there is no reason. Could it be that this murderer was just a deranged individual that needs no label. Not autism or mental illness. Not having enough schooling or activities. Just an individual who wanted to go out being immortalized. I guess my point is sometimes there is no reason. There are too many people in this world lumped together under misunderstood labels because of individuals who are just plain evil.

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Rated +4 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Clearly, if Lanza's condition showed himself a risk to himself or others, his family should have arranged an intervention on his medical behalf.  Did they?  Remains to be seen.  Sometimes the family keeps it on the downlow.  But I have problems when the public banters about words like 'crazy' and 'evil' within the context of murder.  So...since you seem to invite a round-table of sorts...


I prefer the law's definition of sanity.  Murder One? The law doesn't use an airy definition of "crazy."  Due process presumes innocence.  It places the burden of proof on the prosecution. The law defines sanity in terms that a human being, out of malice aforethought, takes steps to take  the life of what he knows is another human being, not a bear or tiger.


We recoil from the "evil" of a Jeff Dahmer.  Yet we don't convict a Dahmer on the basis of our feelings.   We convict a Jeff Dahmer on the weight of evidence.  Dahmer was convicted because evidence showed a combination of malice aforethought, a plan put into place, and the act of taking of human lives for sexual gratification. Dahmer had a goal.


If Lanza had gone to trial, the prosecution would have had to show Lanza planned malice, then carried out his plan to take the lives of human beings for purposes of satisfying himself in some way.  It would show Lanza was revenging himself or that Lanza believed he was correcting a universal wrong, etc. No matter.  The law had only to show Lanza was seeking satisfaction in the continuum from his 'guilty mind' to the crime itself.   Mens Rea + Actus Reus. 


Was Lanza capable of the crime?


The defense would  have tried to show that, by virtue of the degree of Lanza's mental incapacitation, Lanza was mentally shorn of the capacity for mens rea.  It would have tried to show Lanza was a man lacking a moral structure.  That  Lanza's organic afflictions had nullified conscience or somehow rendered Lanza's capacity for malice nil.


Yet, that same argument could be made of a Capone or a Mengele whose defense might also claim to delusional ideas, a tough childhood, moral 'confusion' - maybe a damaged limbic system.  The defense might argue the same for any high-functioning Asperger's sufferer who never showed a pattern of casual cruelty nor destructive explosions - or did. 


Mazeltov.  Because... then we are also obliged to exonorate the 'mere' simpleton who laughs with glee while he pistol-whips his antagonist to death?


The world will argue what satisfaction Lanza hoped to gain from his act.   That is a tall order, home-schooled or not.  Or is it?  Generally, neither high-functioning autism nor Asperger's Syndrome renders neither satisfaction nor malice irrelevant to the extent the defense would have tried to contend. The defense could have contended Lanza was always an automaton.  Shelled out from early on.  A brain-injury sufferer. 


Did Lanza drive to Sandy Hook?  What were his movements that day?  Is Lanza, organically stripped of conscience,  less responsible, say, than the murderer portrayed by De Niro in Taxi Driver?  Or any terrorist group decapitating 'spiritual enemies' with kitchen knives?


Ok, Lanza was home-schooled.  Ok maybe Lanza's family kept him 'in the closet'.  Can we say that strips Lanza of the capacity for the crime? Do we let the Lanzas off because we lack the genome for the brain-chemistry?  Do we absolve responsibility because physicians can't isolate malice from the human brain and hold it up for public regard in the equation for crime?  We don't try the soul.  We try the housing.  In motion.


There are many deeply disturbed children who slip through the cracks.  Many are consigned to labels.  Many require institutionalization if they are determined risks.  Was Lanza that big a risk? A 'secret man', boiling?  Lanza did not murder his mother, take her weapons then go to Sandy Hook, break into the Admin office and proceed from there on his bloody plan culminating in self-execution because he believed he was defending himself from bears he could see were about to attack him.  Nor did he do it as an extension of a lifetime of physically attacking others, wounding puppies for sport, etc.  Even if Lanza started cruel acts early...as a secret child to become a secret man...remember Dahmer?


Lanza figured stuff out.  He planned to kill his mother, take her weapons and proceed.  Lanza planned to kill human beings he knew were children and teachers in a school.  Lanza killed himself to avoid capture.  The autopsy may show Lanza was also overcome with remorse. 


Remorse doesn't get Lanza off the hook.


Were we obliged to catch Lanza before the fact?  Yes, indeed.  Had we the means? Maybe. But remember - for every Lanza, every Dahmer, there are millions more besieged by shrill mental illness, millions impelled toward malicious revenge for acts real or imagined, millions consumed by rage and deranged and corrupt fantasy,  who restrain themselves.  Therein lies the difference between malice restrained and malice acted upon.  Welcome to the human race.


For those who cross the line from from 'mens rea' to 'actus reus' - Justice provides us.  Thank God.


And yeah.  School districts are cutting back left and right on funding for Special Education.  So...break out your wallets. 


 

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Rated +1 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

MarlyB, that was one of the finest responses i have ever read on policelink, well thought out and very well presented. thank you for your input

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Rated +1 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Thank you, Mikesplace.  I care a lot about these things.  Where else can I say it?


Behind the scenes here, I sometimes get discouraging messages telling me to hang in the bleachers or just 'be a fly on the wall.'  I sometimes get told in public - essentially - to 'quit running off at the mouth.' 


But by and large - I get encouragement!  So...I hope I serve the ones who want to say it but for one reason or another don't.


 

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Rated +2 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

MarlyB says ...



Thank you, Mikesplace.  I care a lot about these things.  Where else can I say it?


Behind the scenes here, I sometimes get discouraging messages telling me to hang in the bleachers or just 'be a fly on the wall.'  I sometimes get told in public - essentially - to 'quit running off at the mouth.' 


But by and large - I get encouragement!  So...I hope I serve the ones who want to say it but for one reason or another don't.


 



Oh, please continue "running off at the mouth."  I think you make some people nervous.  Maybe others feel threatened or not quite so smart.  So, tell them to bug off! 



 


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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

DonnaLynn, correct me if I'm wrong but haven't most PL members made someone nervous more than once or twice?? lol


Thank you and I always loooove your comebacks, GF!


DonnaLynn says ...



MarlyB says ...



Thank you, Mikesplace.  I care a lot about these things.  Where else can I say it?


Behind the scenes here, I sometimes get discouraging messages telling me to hang in the bleachers or just 'be a fly on the wall.'  I sometimes get told in public - essentially - to 'quit running off at the mouth.' 


But by and large - I get encouragement!  So...I hope I serve the ones who want to say it but for one reason or another don't.


 



Oh, please continue "running off at the mouth."  I think you make some people nervous.  Maybe others feel threatened or not quite so smart.  So, tell them to bug off! 



 


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Rated +1 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

MarlyB says ...



Thank you, Mikesplace.  I care a lot about these things.  Where else can I say it?


Behind the scenes here, I sometimes get discouraging messages telling me to hang in the bleachers or just 'be a fly on the wall.'  I sometimes get told in public - essentially - to 'quit running off at the mouth.' 


But by and large - I get encouragement!  So...I hope I serve the ones who want to say it but for one reason or another don't.



Marly, you are very well versed. I really enjoy reading your posts, mostly because, more often than not, they are written brilliantly!



 



"Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives." - Ronald Reagan

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Rated +1 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Thank you too, Cat!  I always enjoy reading a LOT of well-put, thought-out views here at PL.  Cops and civilians make great debates!


Mikiesplace has a great topic that deserves LOTS of input from all sides, soooo -


BUMP TO THE TOP!!


 

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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Ssu459, I am thinking about this idea you have about nobody wanting to shoulder the entire responsibility.  We are searching for something to pin it on and we are coming up empty-handed.  That is the nature of the last bullet Lanza used to take his own life.  He took a part of us with him.


Maybe this strange mix of emotions is happening to us all over the United States - the collective guilt.  That's part of the pain we all feel.  Deep down, we want to have stopped it.  Deep down, we want to identify the cause and kill it so it can't happen again.  This is... an animal thing.  So...locked as we are in this helpless grief and horror and guilt...it hurts our soul.  Our individual souls and our collective soul.  Meantime, you have all these babies and their teachers who just left us. We want them back among us.  We want them back!!


What a terrible wound the ricochet of Adam's gunfire.  The bullets continue to ricochet straight into our hearts - over and over again. A thousand angles. This is a wound we can't close.  It just won't stanch. We are still under fire.  We want to stop it. And - we don't want it to stop yet.  Not until we know where it came from. 


I say Adam massacred us in the soul.  A collective soul still reeling from 911.  We took a shot when Al-Qaeda launched those gas-bombs into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.  It happened again when Adam burst into the office of Sandy Hook.  A succession of massacres.  It is indeed pure madness.


Everyone wants to make a sudden move to cure the madness after the fact - even if it means sacrificing other things that are equally dear.  But we can't cure it.  We can reduce the risk, but we have to live with the wound.  There is no escaping that. 


Of only that I am certain.   And I am so very very sad for us all.  Yes, let's hold our tender babies closer to us tonight.  And always.

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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Great thread.


I have a great nephew with Aspergers. Genius level IQ with no social skills. Clings to his mother evry moment he can. Is he mentally ill? Of course. Is he capable of violence or any criminal act? NO. We can all second guess and monday morning analyze situations from the cold light of day and put any spin we want, any label we want on it. We just do not know. Just like a family whos child is molested by one parent, the other parent usually claims they never saw the signs until after the crime is  exposed. Then its "how did I miss connecting the dots"? The same with this case. Most citizens do not see the dots in front of them. Concerned with their own daily lives.


""Life is a storm.. You will bask in the sunlight one moment, be shattered on the rocks the next. What makes you a man is what you do when that storm comes"
Alexander Dumas-The Count of Monte Christo

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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

BUMP!

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MIKIESPLACE says ...



WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO CRAZY?


..........................<snip>...............


     I am sure alot more will come of this case and the shooters motives and behaviors, i am posting this, i guess, to say that there are crazy people who need more than a personal aide to sit with them in classroom,  to be given special diplomas, to be made to feel good. There are many reasons we know of and dont know of that causes people to be as they are but does that mean they, and their behaviors are safe in our society?


YOUR COMMENTS AND INPUT PLEASE, and please be kind.



Crazy got swept under the rug right along with the feel good movement that everyone get's a trophy if they play a sport and no one get's left behind or made to feel like they just don't cut it.  This attitude was implemented in sports and schools across America and no one has the fortitude to tell a child you need to pick a different sport or maybe sports just aren't your thing!  This feel good society has made the adult children, immature adults, think they are owed ________-(fill in the blank).  This also lends itself to parents who will not look at their child and see his/her problem and acknowledge that they need help much less get them help. 


My question is why not?  What is it that stops a parent from getting their child mental help?   Is it the ostrich syndrome?  I have no clue what the answer is to this question.  I do think that children are de-sensitized.  But how much is environment, lack of parenting or just plain old EVILness!?  Sometimes it's just plain old evil and other times it's a mental condition that is never addressed. 


 


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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Right on, Donna.  And talking of the 'ostrich problem', other areas to excel - like the arts - gutted from most districts altogether.  Kids notify other kids when they can't cut it. Those kids used to find themselves in the Arts.


So...welcome to the Cyber-Veldt where God knows who whispers to an exiled kid he CAN make it to celebrity with... a pull of the trigger. 


ALL parents need to stop using the computer as a baby-sitter.


DonnaLynn says ...



MIKIESPLACE says ...



WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO CRAZY?


..........................<snip>...............


     I am sure alot more will come of this case and the shooters motives and behaviors, i am posting this, i guess, to say that there are crazy people who need more than a personal aide to sit with them in classroom,  to be given special diplomas, to be made to feel good. There are many reasons we know of and dont know of that causes people to be as they are but does that mean they, and their behaviors are safe in our society?


YOUR COMMENTS AND INPUT PLEASE, and please be kind.



Crazy got swept under the rug right along with the feel good movement that everyone get's a trophy if they play a sport and no one get's left behind or made to feel like they just don't cut it.  This attitude was implemented in sports and schools across America and no one has the fortitude to tell a child you need to pick a different sport or maybe sports just aren't your thing!  This feel good society has made the adult children, immature adults, think they are owed ________-(fill in the blank).  This also lends itself to parents who will not look at their child and see his/her problem and acknowledge that they need help much less get them help. 


My question is why not?  What is it that stops a parent from getting their child mental help?   Is it the ostrich syndrome?  I have no clue what the answer is to this question.  I do think that children are de-sensitized.  But how much is environment, lack of parenting or just plain old EVILness!?  Sometimes it's just plain old evil and other times it's a mental condition that is never addressed. 


 


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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

I well recall in of my psych classes in college.The prof. had on the board,all semester a memorable line.Broken down was the word laboratory to read,"Not enough labor,too much oratory".I believe this is one of the indicators of what has gone askew in todays modern society with the .alleged modern math,modern English,modern psych.I began seeing the results ,on the streets for the twenty seven years I wore the badge.Parents with little or no intention of training up their children in which way they should go,shoving them out into the streets,in hopes the Police and Teachers would do their job for them.In fact that is biblical,not just my concept.I defer to DonnaLynn and Marly,as always, as I do not posess the eloquence of thought and speech that I should.

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ssu459 says ...



I well recall in of my psych classes in college.The prof. had on the board,all semester a memorable line.Broken down was the word laboratory to read,"Not enough labor,too much oratory".I believe this is one of the indicators of what has gone askew in todays modern society with the .alleged modern math,modern English,modern psych.I began seeing the results ,on the streets for the twenty seven years I wore the badge.Parents with little or no intention of training up their children in which way they should go,shoving them out into the streets,in hopes the Police and Teachers would do their job for them.In fact that is biblical,not just my concept.I defer to DonnaLynn and Marly,as always, as I do not posess the eloquence of thought and speech that I should.



I think you do have a way with words and have lots to say that we all need and want to hear.

DonnaLynn


12/24/2012


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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

"Too much oratory"?? Read: Reduced Student Attention Span.  Read:  Incompetency to take notes.  Read: Incompetency to distill ideas out of text and other sources for classwide discussion.  Read: Rampant incompetency to develope ideas of any worth.


1.  Reduced attention span.  Could this be a function of ram-packing numbers into elementary school classrooms, configuring students at tables with their backs to teachers?  Could it be a result of students floundering around in 'group work', while the teacher runs laps to take care of the - remedial language / math / science one-on-one?  It's much easier to 'hide' once you strike down 'teacher direct' and a little thing called 'Teacher Observation.'  Remember THAT??


2.  Incompetency to take useful notes.  See above.  If students are being trained out of listening and responding in whole-class exercises out-moded by district-funded 'Time is Money' bone-head curriculum packaging, might also want to check out erosion of teacher authority.  Or have we NOT noticed all high-schoolers have to do these days is shrug collectively and whine, "We don't get it!"  in order to weasel out of any participation at all?  What happened to training kids to TALK??


3.  Inability to excercise higher critical thinking skills.  That would require competency in debate.  See above and refer to Lock-Step curriculum that has no time to develop debate skills.  Refer to abject boredom, rampant.


Then factor in the Adam Lanza (for all the thousands) whose ideas NOBODY seemed to care about anyway.  Yeah.  They can go unnoticed for a looooonnng time.  By EVERYBODY.


Was it our job to notice?  You bet.  If we had, could we have stopped it?  Maybe.  But we owe ALL kids what we didn't provide Adam Lanza.


And the debate comes full circle.


 

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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Who is to blame is all conjecture at this point.  (IMO it's a combination of things and the recipe isn't the same for each batch of soup.) Who knows if any of the teachers from school would have tried to help him... they didn't while he was there.  His mother didn't help after removing him from school and IMO hiding him away.  At this point it doesn't matter other than to learn from this horrific tragedy.  Coulda, woulda, shoulda, but didn't. 


Now, my question is "What do we do to begin to fix this... or is it fixable?"  I'd rather help one and possibly stop one school shooting than to not even try something/anything at this point!


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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

I tended,through my school years to give special attention to those who were shunned.The heavy kids,those who weren't too terribly bright,those who were teased and harassed,those who weren't popular and or appeared physically or emotionally unprepared. In turn, was not well accepted for this.I noted by the pics of Adam Lanza that he was extremely small and noticed by the odd gaze of his eyes that he was probably set upon ,emotionally or physically by others.Many said he was odd,only after  the fact.I wonder how many attempted to befriend him? I'm certainly not making excuses for him just wondering aloud.

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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Yeah, ssu459.   Remember how every high school had lots of fat chicks that used to club up together and have lots of fun telling people where to shove it? Nowadays mere fat chicks get exiled so bad the only place you find 'em together now are in 'alternative schools'.  Yeesh.


Somebody needs to crack the lid open on what hazing really means these days.


As for Adam Lanza.  Read somewhere his barber was shocked by the very weird, total silence both Lanza AND his mother showed during his haircut from start to finish.  I can think of better ways a mother of such a youngster could have modeled socially acceptable behavior. 


Was it the tip of an iceberg?  Maybe we'll never know.


 

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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

DonnaLynn says ...



MarlyB says ...



Thank you, Mikesplace.  I care a lot about these things.  Where else can I say it?


Behind the scenes here, I sometimes get discouraging messages telling me to hang in the bleachers or just 'be a fly on the wall.'  I sometimes get told in public - essentially - to 'quit running off at the mouth.' 


But by and large - I get encouragement!  So...I hope I serve the ones who want to say it but for one reason or another don't.


 



Oh, please continue "running off at the mouth."  I think you make some people nervous.  Maybe others feel threatened or not quite so smart.  So, tell them to bug off! 



What Donna said, couldn't have said it better myself !  



PL's Mamacat

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Rated +1 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Once upon a time there were institutions for people. But due to human greed, and the perfidy of some, they became cess pits of abuse. The ACLU stepped in and instead of cleaning up the mess,  making sure these facilities were run properly with good staff and proper care, they closed them all because it violated the mentally ills civil rights. Now, this didn't take into account the families that were not equipped to take care of their loved ones needs, nor did it provide out patient programs. So now where are the mentally ill? A lot of them are on the streets.


As we all know, power corrupts. That is why any institution that has power and control over people (whether it is a mental hospital or a prison) MUST have good people to staff it. That is our delimma. 


I don;'t know the answers to how to stop this from happening again. I do know that personal responsibility plays an important role in it. Why did his mom have a gun collection that he had access to? is my first question.  I will never get that answer.  Should all of the responsible gun owners have to give up their guns? Not in my book. Should the mentally ill have the right to weapons. Not in my book. (neither should convicted felons but that is another argument) Should everyone who owns a weapon be properly trained in its use and storage? ABSOLUTELY !!! Should all children be taught the basic gun safety rules? Absolutely again (mine were).


Again, I don't know the answers, but we must NOT make knee jerk decisions either way.


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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

Cat_D says ...



>snip< Why did his mom have a gun collection that he had access to? is my first question.  I will never get that answer.  Should all of the responsible gun owners have to give up their guns? Not in my book. Should the mentally ill have the right to weapons. Not in my book. (neither should convicted felons but that is another argument) Should everyone who owns a weapon be properly trained in its use and storage? ABSOLUTELY !!! Should all children be taught the basic gun safety rules? Absolutely again (mine were).


Again, I don't know the answers, but we must NOT make knee jerk decisions either way.



This.  I do not understand why people feel that it is okay to own weapons and not have said weapons secured.  Owning a small aresenal may be in your rights but displaying or storing them improperly especially where children or "visitors" can easily access them is, in my opinion, entirely irresponsible and completely dangerous.


"And maybe just remind the few, if ill of us they speak, that we are all that stands between the monsters and the weak." Michael Marks

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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

if this conversation/forum/of mine has gone from what happened to crazy? to why dont people secure their personally owned firearms, well, if we are talking about the newtown conn, shooting for instance, let us not forget that the perp DID IN FACT SHOOT HIS MOTHER, THE OWNER OF SAID FIREARMS FOUR TIMES IN THE HEAD TO GAIN ACCESS TO SAID FIREARMS.

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Rated +1 | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

MIKIESPLACE says ...



if this conversation/forum/of mine has gone from what happened to crazy? to why dont people secure their personally owned firearms, well, if we are talking about the newtown conn, shooting for instance, let us not forget that the perp DID IN FACT SHOOT HIS MOTHER, THE OWNER OF SAID FIREARMS FOUR TIMES IN THE HEAD TO GAIN ACCESS TO SAID FIREARMS.


 


I think these two are intertwined.  



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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

I understand that the perp shot his mother but I was under the impression that he did so with her own gun. 


I believe that he did indeed have a screw loose and I apologize for jumping in the "securing guns" bandwagon and straying from the original intention of this post.  The fact remains that this woman knew her son was emotionally desturbed and still had weapons easily accessible... And others who have secured weapons to kill innocent people?  Would they have passed a CBI?  Could they have purchased their own weapons or did they obtain their weapons from unsuspecting and law abiding citizens who, although mental stable, failed to take the responsibility of properly securing their properly obtained weapons?


"And maybe just remind the few, if ill of us they speak, that we are all that stands between the monsters and the weak." Michael Marks

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We do not have all the facts in this case.  We only have what the media has told us, and as you know some or most of this information might not even be accurate.  From a homicide investigators point of view, the fact that he shot his mother in the face is the first clue.  This is what we call a signature shot. This usually involves great anger in the fact that she was paying more attention to a relationship than to her troubled son.  The message he was sending by shooting her in the face was the fact that she was a pretty lady, and in his mind he resented her relationships. He viewed this as, if I can't have you no one will. He was probably still upset over her divorcing his father, or the fact that she never tried to resolve their family issues. This is only one problem that a good investigator would have to look into. 


This kids behavior patterns were not put there overnight and took years to develop.  There were a lot of red flags that everyone ignored, and now we all sit back and say, why didn't anyone see them.  They did see them.  They ignored them.  Why guns were in this childs reach is beyond me.  Obvioulsy, the mother did not see him as a homicidal child, or simply ignored the fact.


I am sure the police know a lot of these answers, but have not released to to the public, and we may never know the answers.  With out all the facts in this case made public, we will never have all the answers.  Mental illness is not properly handled in this Country, and never has been. Healthcare professionals onlt hear one side of the story, a parents side.  We have made it impossible for the full lifestyle of someone who is mentally ill to come out.  The parents will never admit to a mental health professional what the real issues are, or the fact that they might be the cause of the childs problems.  In todays society we medicate instead of dealing with the real issues. I have seen this time after time in my investigations of violent situations in the home.  In most of these cases, once you see how the child is raised, you will probably see that the child earned his mental problems righteously.  A lot of the kids I have investigated were not born with these issues, they developed them over a long period of time.


Mental health professionals need to deal with these cases by conducting a background investigations, like the police do. They will be real surprized in what they will find.  Usually kids like in this case have very deep seated problems stemming from other family issues that trigger their violence.  This is the only way we will ever get the bottom of these types of cases. I see many kids who are on the edge like this kid was, and no one will listen.  Maybe this is what it will take for people to wake up and start paying attention, instead of worrying where the insurance payment is going to come from or if the doctor is going to get paid.  So many of these families I see can't get their children help, because they don't have the money or insurance.  The state run mental health facilities are all full and turn these families away.  I see it every day.  It's scary sad what our nation has become.


I don't have an answer on how to solve these mass killings, but the media is not helping with the situation at all.  Very sad what our law makers have done with all the privacy rights, and costs of medical care.  Untill we address the basic needs, this will continue.  Very sad, but we may never get all the answers in this case.  My heart goes out to the families of these children in this case.


 


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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

I haven't seen the facts around that incident.  But like I've said, Lanza had a mission - locked gun box or unlocked gun box.


Somebody like Adam Lanza is going to figure out a way to do this kind of thing.  We don't have severe retardation or mental incapacitation in the equation. Lanza was mentally together enough to drive over to the mass murder site loaded for a herd of lambs.  Without firearms, he might have simply used an ax on his mother.  We will never know.


NOBODY ask me to give a rip about Lanza's emotional problems in terms of the crime. Lanza/s emotional problems didn't rise to the level of being filled with murderous rage because those babies at Sandy Hook were charging wild boars about to attack and kill him.


I do agree with JIMROC's analysis.  Some of the remedies JIMROC suggests could help.  No doubt. I do believe we all feel culpable on some level when one of these explodes.  That's why we will continue to reel from the shock. However I do not let Lanza off the hook. 


There are souls far more tortured who don't cross the line.


 


MIKIESPLACE says ...



if this conversation/forum/of mine has gone from what happened to crazy? to why dont people secure their personally owned firearms, well, if we are talking about the newtown conn, shooting for instance, let us not forget that the perp DID IN FACT SHOOT HIS MOTHER, THE OWNER OF SAID FIREARMS FOUR TIMES IN THE HEAD TO GAIN ACCESS TO SAID FIREARMS.


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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

MarlyB says ...



I haven't seen the facts around that incident.  But like I've said, Lanza had a mission - locked gun box or unlocked gun box.


Somebody like Adam Lanza is going to figure out a way to do this kind of thing.  We don't have severe retardation or mental incapacitation in the equation. Lanza was mentally together enough to drive over to the mass murder site loaded for a herd of lambs.  Without firearms, he might have simply used an ax on his mother.  We will never know.


NOBODY ask me to give a rip about Lanza's emotional problems in terms of the crime. Lanza/s emotional problems didn't rise to the level of being filled with murderous rage because those babies at Sandy Hook were charging wild boars about to attack and kill him.


I do agree with JIMROC's analysis.  Some of the remedies JIMROC suggests could help.  No doubt. I do believe we all feel culpable on some level when one of these explodes.  That's why we will continue to reel from the shock. However I do not let Lanza off the hook. 


There are souls far more tortured who don't cross the line.


 


MIKIESPLACE says ...



if this conversation/forum/of mine has gone from what happened to crazy? to why dont people secure their personally owned firearms, well, if we are talking about the newtown conn, shooting for instance, let us not forget that the perp DID IN FACT SHOOT HIS MOTHER, THE OWNER OF SAID FIREARMS FOUR TIMES IN THE HEAD TO GAIN ACCESS TO SAID FIREARMS.



MarlyB is right in the fact that the guns were used because they were there at his fingertips. If he had not had access to the guns, would this still have happened?  I don't have those answers, but there are hundreds of instruments that could be used a deadly weapons in any household.  This thread is not about guns, it's about "What happened to Crazy."


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Rate This | Posted almost 2 years ago

 

JIMROC says ...



MarlyB says ...



I haven't seen the facts around that incident.  But like I've said, Lanza had a mission - locked gun box or unlocked gun box.


Somebody like Adam Lanza is going to figure out a way to do this kind of thing.  We don't have severe retardation or mental incapacitation in the equation. Lanza was mentally together enough to drive over to the mass murder site loaded for a herd of lambs.  Without firearms, he might have simply used an ax on his mother.  We will never know.


NOBODY ask me to give a rip about Lanza's emotional problems in terms of the crime. Lanza/s emotional problems didn't rise to the level of being filled with murderous rage because those babies at Sandy Hook were charging wild boars about to attack and kill him.


I do agree with JIMROC's analysis.  Some of the remedies JIMROC suggests could help.  No doubt. I do believe we all feel culpable on some level when one of these explodes.  That's why we will continue to reel from the shock. However I do not let Lanza off the hook. 


There are souls far more tortured who don't cross the line.


 


MIKIESPLACE says ...



if this conversation/forum/of mine has gone from what happened to crazy? to why dont people secure their personally owned firearms, well, if we are talking about the newtown conn, shooting for instance, let us not forget that the perp DID IN FACT SHOOT HIS MOTHER, THE OWNER OF SAID FIREARMS FOUR TIMES IN THE HEAD TO GAIN ACCESS TO SAID FIREARMS.



MarlyB is right in the fact that the guns were used because they were there at his fingertips. If he had not had access to the guns, would this still have happened?  I don't have those answers, but there are hundreds of instruments that could be used a deadly weapons in any household.  This thread is not about guns, it's about "What happened to Crazy."


 


I believe there are different kinds of crazy.  Simplified terms - scared crazy, angry crazy and evil crazy.  There are more, but Evil Crazy is where we are with this one.  Like I said earlier, heads buried in the sand is a big part of this!



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