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tricky question

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Posted over 1 year ago

 

I've got a cunundrum.


I have a question about back-up guns but I don't know how or where to ask it with-out  jeopardizing my or your (sworn LEOs) safties.


I am looking for advice between two differant models of back-up gun and methods for carrying them from people that have experiance with those models.


Could someone please advise as I do not want to discuss what I carry for my duty side-arm; as well as what back-up gun I will be carrying and where I carry it on an open forum.  Nor would I ask any sworn LEO officer to do so as well.


I am a Certified Agent in PA (non-sworn officer) which means that I am not able to be verified to receive access to the resticted parts of the PL forum if I did I would ask this question there but I don't so I can't.


Any thoughts/help on how to go about getting this question(s) asnwered would be greatly appreciated.


Best regards


-B

Wredcedar_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Post the makes and models and your specific question and ask for reply by PM.  You may get some response that way.  With your non-verified statis you may not get much adice on how/where the officer carries his backup but might get suggestions where you could carry one.

Fall_2007_027__2__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

As I recall, this topic was covered in our academy during firearms training, and later by my FTO's. 


Why not ask around your own department or with the instructors where you received firearms training.


I have to agree with Cedardale, you're not likely to get this question answered in this forum.

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

I concur with MetroRW30. I am calling BS. Why axe total strangers instead of coworkers. I am suspicious.

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

I'm way beyond suspicious.This person is claiming to be a NON SWORN agent of some kind in Pa. I lived in two different parts of Pa. for six years and never heard of such an animal .He speaks,as well, about carrying a duty weapon..Where,on this planet do non sworn personel carry weapons?

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

i believe a CERTIFIED AGENT IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF PA is a security guard working for a private concern and the term certified agent comes from t his guards application for a carry firearms permit during the course of this unofficial duties.  Please correct me in i am wrong bump in the night?

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Maybe he's one of these?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_State_Constables




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

 As Uncle would say, this is throwing up more red flags than a Communist pep rally.  Smell funny, this question/poster does.

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

mz66 says ...



Maybe he's one of these?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_State_Constables



I doubt if he is one of these, if he was he could get verified statis on PL as he is covered by HR 218 and considered an elected LEO in PA.  I think MIKIESPLACE is probably on the correct track.

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Cedardale says ...



mz66 says ...



Maybe he's one of these?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_State_Constables



I doubt if he is one of these, if he was he could get verified statis on PL as he is covered by HR 218 and considered an elected LEO in PA.  I think MIKIESPLACE is probably on the correct track.



Yeah--found this later:


Certified agent—A privately employed agent who possesses a current and valid certification issued by the Commissioner.


See http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/037/chapter21/chap21toc.html


(CHAPTER 21. ADMINISTRATION OF THE LETHAL WEAPONS TRAINING PROGRAM)


Pretty much exactly what MIKIE said.


 




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

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Rated +1 | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Cedardale says...

"Post the makes and models and your specific question and ask for reply by PM.  You may get some response that way.  With your non-verified statis you may not get much adice on how/where the officer carries his backup but might get suggestions where you could carry one."



As I stated originally I do not wish to openly disclose what I carry and esp what and where I am looking to carry as a back-up for the same reasons as why you would not.

uncledennis1 says...

"I concur with MetroRW30. I am calling BS. Why axe total strangers instead of coworkers. I am suspicious."



I would ask them but niether of the two other individuals who make up our security team carry the same primary I do or have either of the options I was looking at for a back-up.  That is why I am asking total strangers; in hopes that someone with experiance in the specific models I am looking at could offer some advice from actual experiance.

ssu459 says...

"I'm way beyond suspicious.This person is claiming to be a NON SWORN agent of some kind in Pa. I lived in two different parts of Pa. for six years and never heard of such an animal .He speaks,as well, about carrying a duty weapon..Where,on this planet do non sworn personel carry weapons?"


The following is a link to the PA State Police (PSP) web site under the lethal weapons training section.  That should help to clarify things for you some ssu459.  If you would like I can and will also provide you or anyonw else via email a copy of my letter from the PSP Lethal Weapons Training Division detailing my successful completion of the lethal weapons certification aka PA ACT 235 as well as a copy of my Agent Certification ID as well.  If that is still not enough of a run out for anyone let me know what else you need or want for you to not think I'm "fishy."


MIKIESPLACE says...

"i believe a CERTIFIED AGENT IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF PA is a security guard working for a private concern and the term certified agent comes from t his guards application for a carry firearms permit during the course of this unofficial duties.  Please correct me in i am wrong bump in the night?"



Yes & no. A Certifidied Agent can be a security guard but not all security guards are Certified Agents either. from the PSP website

"ACT 235 Providing for the training and licensing of watch guards, protective patrolmen, detectives and criminal investigators, carrying and  using lethal weapons in their employment; imposing powers and duties on the Commissioner of the Pennsylvania State Police; and providing penalties." The "term" as you put it comes from what is on your ID issued from the Commonwealth of PA and the PSP which says Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Certified Agent.  It does not come from an application to carry a firearm during the course of unofficial duties. That would be a PA liscense to carry firearms (aka concealed carry permit) which is issued by the county you reside in Sheriff's dept.  To carry a firearm for official duties you are required to become a Certified Agent.

mz66

No not a PA State Constable.  While that is a elected or appointed position Constables in PA are "peace officers" and are sworn.  I do however work with a PA State Constable sometimes

SecurityOfficer2131 says...

"Some one should be able to vouch that he is who he says he is. So I may not be a cop but it sounds fishy to me."



There are many people that could vouch for me. I'll ask some of my local PD personel that know me well are on here and if so ask them to write a referance for me if they are.   By the way SO2131 what seems "fishy" to me is that less than a day after I create this post and less than 6hrs after you comment in this thread you make one in the same forum (G&E: title - Back-up Gun) also asking about back-up guns.  Where in which you state that you want advice on"what kind of pistol you guys would recommend?" As-well-as "someone told me that small guns such as .308, that after firing a  few times will jam. Is that true, or are they pretty good?" First of all if one is even made; there would be nothing small about a .308 handgun because .308 is a rifle round.  Second everything about that statement to me says that you do not know too much about firearms by making such a blanket statement about a caliber of firearm not a maker or model.  What gets even more fishy to me then is that you are not even forthright about your intentions for this handgun.  Finally admitting "Okay, So I dont really want a gun for work. I wanted a second gun so if I ever have to give my primary weapon up i have a second."  All of that to me sir smells like 12 day old tuna.

Crumb_passin_thru_02_1__max50

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Rated +1 | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Dunno about the rest of it, but "bump_in..."'s comments regarding SecurityOfficer's hemming and hawwing seem on target.




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

mz66 says ...



Dunno about the rest of it, but "bump_in..."'s comments regarding SecurityOfficer's hemming and hawwing seems on target.



I hate to admit it, but the OP is correct here.  mz deserves props for calling it in an appropriate manner as well.

Wredcedar_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Actually I have no problem discussing my duty sidearm in an open forum.  As with all LEO's duty sidearms are constrained by dept. policy and many agencies tell their duty firearm on the their website.  Also since a duty weapon is carried openly, anyone who is knowledgable of firearms can tell what I carry when they see me.  Thus I carry a S&W M&P full size in 45 ACP.

Csi_squirrle_max600_1__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

 A short note to the OP.  Since you did not list the weapons you are considering I can't comment on your choice(s).  Since you posted here I believe you may have access to the internet.  Go to google and type back-up handguns, or concealable defensive handguns.  You will have more advice than you can shake a stick at.  I have carried close to a dozen different off-duty, concealed, back-up handguns over the years.  They all have their pluses and minuses.  Do some research and move on.  

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Rated +1 | Posted over 1 year ago

 

"There are many people that could vouch for me. I'll ask some of my local PD personel that know me well are on here and if so ask them to write a referance for me if they are.   By the way SO2131 what seems "fishy" to me is that less than a day after I create this post and less than 6hrs after you comment in this thread you make one in the same forum (G&E: title - Back-up Gun) also asking about back-up guns.  Where in which you state that you want advice on"what kind of pistol you guys would recommend?" As-well-as "someone told me that small guns such as .308, that after firing a  few times will jam. Is that true, or are they pretty good?" First of all if one is even made; there would be nothing small about a .308 handgun because .308 is a rifle round.  Second everything about that statement to me says that you do not know too much about firearms by making such a blanket statement about a caliber of firearm not a maker or model.  What gets even more fishy to me then is that you are not even forthright about your intentions for this handgun.  Finally admitting "Okay, So I dont really want a gun for work. I wanted a second gun so if I ever have to give my primary weapon up i have a second."  All of that to me sir smells like 12 day old tuna."


 


That is a freaking awesome comment! Sure does sound like a cop to me! Props to the OP!


You can't cure stupid.

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

To bumbinthenight, im sorry for my comments. I only said it was fishy because you could not name what field you were in. Im not an officer so what I say does not really matter. And im sorry that I said .308 instead of .380. I get those confused sometimes. And no my forum did not involve your forum, but i do understand where it looks that way. I Joined this site to make some friends with leos because that is the field I want to join But as I can see now that some  of the leos dont thing I should join the field. So best wishs to your job. and again im sorry for any comments that i have said.

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Let me preface my reply with a little more detail about myself.


My current primary job that I work is in a high crime and drug rate residentail area in a city that has been ranked pretty high up in the most violent cities in the counrty (around 15 violent crimes per 1,000 residents in this city.) I am part of a team that was hired on to help "clean-up" the area by the property managment company.  So far we are having good sucsess too with greatly lowered drug activity, and public disturbances.   Many residents have told us how much of a change they have noticed and that they aren't afraid to come out of their apartments anymore.


mz66


"Dunno about the rest of it, but "bump_in..."'s comments regarding SecurityOfficer's hemming and hawwing seems on target."


If there is anything further I can do to clearify or set you more at ease please let me know.


Cedardale


I know and understand that LEO firearms are either issued or apporved by their dept and i do understand your point about them being visable and that someone with a well versed knowledge in handguns many be able to tell what they are.


mmmm


I have done my research that is how and why i have it narrowed down to two models.  Yes there is plenty of info online that is "google-able" about conceald carry guns etc. but I don't really feel like trusting the opinion of some random person online just becuas they have a wesite or even better...a youtuube channel.  Esp when in comes to carrying a back-up gun while working.  I do just fine with and have no need to ask about concealed carry advice.


ajsdaddy


thank you for the complement.


 


With all that said I guess I'll try things this way:


The duty sidearm that I carry is the S&W full-size M&P 40.


Can or would anybody give me advice/suggestions for carrying a S&W M&P 40c or the S&W M&P 40shield as a back-up gun.  I have a pro and con list form them both and am at a bit of a stale-mate.  If it were for regular plainclothes not while working carry I wouldn't even bother with the 40c as it isn't that much signifigantly smaller than my full-size and I have no problems "cc"ing my full-size (between my build and proper dress.)  But since it is for working there is an advantage that the 40c has over the 40shield that being the 40c can take my full size mags.  But, then the 40shield is lighter and smaller which i can imagine opens up some carry options.   So if anyone can offer up some advice, opinions, or suggestions on either of those two models please let me know it would be greatly appriecated.  Also if anyone is willing to do so but does not want to do so on the onen forum pm me and I will send you my email address and will provide you with any documentation on me that you would like (providing that you are a verified leo.)


Thank you in advance for any help or advice that anyone may render.


-B


 

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Relax and take a deep breath. You are trying much to hard to prove yourself. Kick back and enjoy the site. There is nothing wrong if you are a security person.


 


........................................................................................RELAX AND TAKE A DEEP BREATH..............................................................

Fall_2007_027__2__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Ahhh... much easier to work on a solution with all the facts.  I am not familiar with the M&P's (I carry a brick - a S&W 4506), but here's my stance on the issue of carrying a back-up... In the thread 'BACK-UP" started by SecurityOfficer 2131, MIKIESPLACE made some great points (edited here for space)


1) A back-up gun is exactly that, back-up.  When you run out of ammo for your primary, need a second gun for self defense, or are disarmed of your primary.


2) May need it to hand off to partner/another LEO so that they can help you or protect themselves


3) A back-up gun, when needed, is needed real quick, no fuss.  You need to be able to fire it as quickly as you can present it from the holster.


Like Mike, I also prefer a revolver for this purpose... and for the same reasons he spells out:


1) No safety/decocker to catch on your clothing during presentation (there are also "hammerless" models available)


2) Quick to shoot, just pull the trigger.  Heavy enough trigger pull to minimize AD's


3) Can be fired with either hand


4) No "out of battery" malfunctions if need during CQB - "contact shot"


5) SA's can malfunction and require more maintenance/care (Your primary is likely a SA which malfunctioned which is why you are now relying on your back-up gun!)


6) SA magazines can be accidently released (no matter where you conceal it) when carried anywhere but on primary side in duty holster...Murphy's law


7) SA's, depending on Make/Model, if mag is not seated, may mean only one shot...perhaps none!


8) There are air-weight model revolvers that weigh little more than the 5-6 cartridges it will be loaded with.


If you prefer a pistol, I would suggest the one that takes the mags of your duty weapon.  At least then you'll have the ability to use all the ammo at your disposal without having to strip/re-load magazines on the fly


And finally, but most importantly... whether you choose a SA or wheel gun, pick something that is light enough, and small enough so that you will in fact carry it.  You will notice the extra weight/bulk after a few shifts (if not hours), so if you choose poorly, you'll end up with nothing more than a "locker gun".


 

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

metroRW30, you are a lucky dog.  I had a S&W 4506 but was forced to sell it.  As you say it is a big gun, but I found it accurate, reliable, and willing to feed just about any ammo, wish I still had mine.

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

My first was a S&W 5906.  It was a heavy little sucker but it was a performer.

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

MetroRW30 says ...



1) No safety/decocker to catch on your clothing during presentation (there are also "hammerless" models available)


2) Quick to shoot, just pull the trigger. Heavy enough trigger pull to minimize AD's


3) Can be fired with either hand


4) No "out of battery" malfunctions if need during CQB - "contact shot"



Just a couple things about those


1) Neither does a Glock, S&W M&P, SA XD, Kahr K9 (various other variations) and numerous other auto loading pistols


2) So are the sub compact models of those already mentioned as well as many others. Heavy pull doesnt not minimize an unintentional discharge. I forget the math and averages but the average person can apply more than enough PSI to a trigger to pull the double action trigger (which is typically 10-13 lbs).  Not putting a booger hook on the bang switch is what minimizes that not how heavy or long a trigger pull is. Not pointing guns at people you havent not made a conscious decision to shoot further minimizes unintentionally putting bullets in people.


3) So can, well any other gun on the market.  As a matter of fact I would argue an auto loader is quicker and easier to reload with either hand.


4) If you are that close for a contact shot do you really think you will able to present your BUG from where ever you are hiding it?  Maybe at that distance other tactics would be more effective and/or appropriate.


With that I have both a revolver and an autoloader.  I shoot both very well.  There are pros and cons to either but I would not say one is better than the other its a matter of personal preference. DISCLAIMER: As long as it is a quaility gun and properly maintained, yes even the revolver.


You have the rest of your life to solve the problem, how long your life lasts depends on how well you do it. -Clint Smith

Respect it

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

well there are many models you can choose i love my glock 26. just has a great feel and i like it. best thing to do is check out a few and go to a range that allowes you to rent and test fire.  then go from there

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

MetroRW30 says ...



Ahhh... much easier to work on a solution with all the facts.  I am not familiar with the M&P's (I carry a brick - a S&W 4506), but here's my stance on the issue of carrying a back-up... In the thread 'BACK-UP" started by SecurityOfficer 2131, MIKIESPLACE made some great points (edited here for space)


1) A back-up gun is exactly that, back-up.  When you run out of ammo for your primary, need a second gun for self defense, or are disarmed of your primary.


2) May need it to hand off to partner/another LEO so that they can help you or protect themselves


3) A back-up gun, when needed, is needed real quick, no fuss.  You need to be able to fire it as quickly as you can present it from the holster.


Like Mike, I also prefer a revolver for this purpose... and for the same reasons he spells out:


1) No safety/decocker to catch on your clothing during presentation (there are also "hammerless" models available)


2) Quick to shoot, just pull the trigger.  Heavy enough trigger pull to minimize AD's


3) Can be fired with either hand


4) No "out of battery" malfunctions if need during CQB - "contact shot"


5) SA's can malfunction and require more maintenance/care (Your primary is likely a SA which malfunctioned which is why you are now relying on your back-up gun!)


6) SA magazines can be accidently released (no matter where you conceal it) when carried anywhere but on primary side in duty holster...Murphy's law


7) SA's, depending on Make/Model, if mag is not seated, may mean only one shot...perhaps none!


8) There are air-weight model revolvers that weigh little more than the 5-6 cartridges it will be loaded with.


If you prefer a pistol, I would suggest the one that takes the mags of your duty weapon.  At least then you'll have the ability to use all the ammo at your disposal without having to strip/re-load magazines on the fly


And finally, but most importantly... whether you choose a SA or wheel gun, pick something that is light enough, and small enough so that you will in fact carry it.  You will notice the extra weight/bulk after a few shifts (if not hours), so if you choose poorly, you'll end up with nothing more than a "locker gun".



I'm not an expert BY FAR.. but would you suggest an H&K weapon, given some of the requirements stated above?  I do like what you said about using "the one that takes mags of your duty weapon" however. 


"Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives." - Ronald Reagan

Fall_2007_027__2__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Catwoman,


I'm hardly an expert when it comes to firearms either... and am not familiar with that particular weapon (never owned or fired an HK pistol...though I do have an HK 416 rifle).  I was really just trying to point out some things that should be taken into consideration.  Quality guns aren't cheap...so you can't just keep buying them til you find the perfect one; you have to carefully consider your purchase or its a waste of hard earned money.  


Any well made and well maintained firearm, revolver or pistol, can work as a back-up.  The last statement of my post, I think, was the most important:    "... whether you choose a SA or wheel gun, pick something that is light enough, and small enough so that you will in fact carry it.  You will notice the extra weight/bulk after a few shifts (if not hours), so if you choose poorly, you'll end up with nothing more than a "locker gun".


I carry a pistol as my primary, and revolver as a back-up.  When I first started, I carried an issued Beretta and a .38 cal SW model 60.  After a couple of years I purchased a SW 3913 to carry as a back-up/off-duty pistol.  That pistol didn't last long as a back-up, and I went back to carrying the .38...though later added a hamerless airweight to my inventory.


I listed the things I look for in a back-up weapon... (mixed in with why I prefer a revolver) you'll likely find many pistols (Scurge listed several) and revolvers that meet most or all of those requirements.  You may even have some additional needs of your own... for instance, I can only carry specific makes/models/calibers from an approved list dictated by my agency.  HK's aren't on there.


That said, I am shopping around for a Glock 21SF and a 30SF.  They weren't approved back when I bought my Smith 4506... but have since made the list.  I'll likely still carry the .38 as a back-up, but am getting the 30SF rather than the G36 since it takes the 21's mags.

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

I'm leaning towards getting the compact version (M&P40c)of the full size (M&P40) I carry on duty.  Size and weight are ablout equivalent the the glock 26 or 27. 


I was looking at the Bianchi Trazit II for carry method; does anyone have any experiance with them?


For those of you who carry a G26/27 what methods have you found to be effective and comforable?


*Edit*


Other options I'm considering are the: M&P Shield in .40, S&W Bodyguard 380, & S&W 442

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

First let me say I did not bother to read the tangents of this thread so I will merely answer the question with my opinion. A BUG is just what the name implies. It is NOT your main duty weapon. It is your lethal weapon of last resort. It should be light, easy to carry, easy to deploy at contact distances. That is why ankle holsters are OUT! In my years I have found the best mode of carry is front pocket. I use weak side since my main weapon is already on my strong side and that is the side that must be incapacitated in order for me to deploy my BUG.


Now for choices. I mainly stay with a revolver. It has been a S&W J frame 5 shot, internal hammer model(nothing to snag). Either a 442 or 642. Good size to weight to power ratio with 38+p. I like the revolver in that role. Idiot proof, rarely malfunctions, load it and leave it alone. If you have to go to a semi, make sure you test it with at least 500 rounds with 0 malfunctions for gun and carry mags. Its the last gun you are betting your life on. It better work. I like the Beretta Tomcat .32acp. Flat, 7 rounds and light. Just my opinion, take it or flush it.


""Life is a storm.. You will bask in the sunlight one moment, be shattered on the rocks the next. What makes you a man is what you do when that storm comes"
Alexander Dumas-The Count of Monte Christo

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

Asking someone you have never met, that knows nothing about you, what back-up weapon you need and how to carry it doesn't make sense. You would have to guess your skill level with semi-auto and revolvers, level of firearm training, size of your hands, and body shape. The question is too general.

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

TNDEPUTY says ...



Asking someone you have never met, that knows nothing about you, what back-up weapon you need and how to carry it doesn't make sense. You would have to guess your skill level with semi-auto and revolvers, level of firearm training, size of your hands, and body shape. The question is too general.



Not asking anyone what I need or how to carry it.  I was asking for personal experiances.

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