Off Duty Forums >> Politics >> Poll: SB 1813 IRS removing your citizenship!

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Poll: SB 1813 IRS removing your citizenship!

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Poll: Do you think the IRS should have this power?

1979_max50

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Posted over 2 years ago

 

What if you had to make a business trip overseas tomorrow only to find out that, even though the IRS does not issue your passport, the IRS has revoked your passport? This is a possible reality if Senate Bill 1813 passes through Congress. You could suddenly become a man without a country! Without proof of your citizenship, you are no longer a US Citizen!


SB 1813 is titled, Transportation Research and Innovative Technology Act of 2012. But, just like the NDAA, this bill has become a Trojan horse for an assault on the constitutionally protected rights of the people of this nation. Inserted deep within this bill, in section 40304, is a provision that gives the IRS the power to revoke your passport for a “seriously delinquent tax debt in an amount in excess of $50,000.” There appears to be no requirement for a judgment by a court; no conviction for fraud or evasion is required, only a “certification by the Commissioner of Internal Revenue”. This is a violation of your right to due process. There is also no provision for Congressional review or approval, therefore this removal of your passport is facilitated by an unelected official who is completely immune from political control of the people. This is a prime example of Legislation without representation. Sure the Senate and House must pass it, but after that the people’s representation is completely removed and a regulatory agency becomes the dictator of the common born rights of Americans. What if this is a mistake? What if they have your name mixed yup with someone else? It's not like it hasn't happened before. Who are you going to appeal to, the IRS? How many years will you be stuck in a foriegn country before they even take up your case? You do not have to be some rich tax evader. You could be some middle class citizen who is taking the vacation of your lifetime after saving for this trip all your life. Maybe you are in the Middle East like Israel or Egypt on a cruise when you suddenly find out you cannot get back on the boat? What if you are in India or Africa? Great places to visit but to be stranded their for years and years?


What does the IRS have to do with your passport? How can non-payment of taxes be the impetus to remove your proof of citizenship or your right to freely travel? Doesn't the removal of your passport practically affect the status of your citizenship? Are we now forced to believe that common rights of Americans, inherited from our Creator and the blood of our forefathers, are bought by our taxes? If this is true, we have been truly removed from the character of freemen to the state of tributary slaves.

1979_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

This is very serious so please read the entire post and then vote and follow through!

Crumb_passin_thru_02_1__max50

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I don't believe the disposition of your passport has anything to do with your citizenship. I'm also confident, but would rather the bill clarified this (if it does not already), that in practice it would revoke exit privileges and deny approval of new applications. I do not have an opinion on whether the IRS should be able to do this, but if someone owes more than $50,000 in taxes, then I honestly don't believe they have any business leaving the country until they pay what they owe.


I cannot vote as the choices are rather leading. 


I respect your opinion, though, Jim.




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

Silver_warrior_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

Seems to me that right now only a judge can revoke your passport and it is usually to keep you IN the states for a pending trial or anything else where your presence has been deemed important.  If you dig deeper, you will also find that the IRS will have the power to take your firearms also. . . . .WITHOUT judicial review also.  JUST A SIMPLE CLAIM THAT YOU OWE OVER $50,000.00 IN TAXES!  Is that a backdoor way of removing the guns from the concientious citizens?  This regime seems willing to do anything it can to get the progressive desires into law before he leaves office!


I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them.

John Bernard Books, from "The Shootist"

Crumb_passin_thru_02_1__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

Beowulf_7 says ...



[snip]



Note, this is a Senate Bill. To which "regime" (a bit of hyperbole, IMO) are you referring?


Also, if you actually look at the text of the bill, there's nothing in it suggesting any threat to gun ownership. Here are the only references to firearms in the entire bill:


 


(f) Exclusions-


....


 ‘(2) FIREARMS- This chapter and regulations prescribed under this chapter do not prohibit--


  ‘(A) or regulate transportation of a firearm (as defined in section 232 of title 18), or ammunition for a firearm, by an individual for personal use; or


  ‘(B) transportation of a firearm or ammunition in commerce.


 


 


 




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

Csi_squirrle_max600_1__max50

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Rated +1 | Posted over 2 years ago

 

I just read the text of the bill.  Basicly if you owe the IRS they can file a request to have your passport pulled.  There are a number of hoops specificly.


‘(b) Seriously Delinquent Tax Debt- For purposes of this section, the term ‘seriously delinquent tax debt’ means an outstanding debt under this title for which a notice of lien has been filed in public records pursuant to section 6323 or a notice of levy has been filed pursuant to section 6331,


So the IRS must have already filed a notice of lien WITH THE COURT .  The purpose of revoking the passport which is not done by the IRS but by the Secretary of State, after approving the IRS request, is to keep those who owe a significant amount of money to the US and have a lien filed against them from fleeing to a country where they can hide from prosecution.  I don't have any problem with this at all.


The bill goes on to say that a passport could be issued in some circumstances even after it is revoked under this bill/law.  This has nothing to do with your citizenship but everything to do with keeping someone in the country to answer the tax lien.


 

1979_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

mz66, the Fact is that this Bill will give the right to the IRS to nullify your Passport without any judicial review or hearing. They can just do it. That takes away your right to due process which is guaranteed in the US Constitution. Additionally they do not have to physically seize your passport, they can invalidate your Passport to which every Citizen is entitled to without due process! What if you are overseas on your vacation of a lifetime when you finally retire? You cannot return to the USA without a valid Passport so what can you do? Sit in whatever country you are currently in and write letters hoping that someday the IRS will get around to you. Like I said, it could easily be a mistake as well. It would not be the first time and certainly not the last time and could affect anyone.

Crumb_passin_thru_02_1__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

Jim, according to mmmm's reading, there is judicial review of the claim and it isn't the IRS that does the revoking. I think there's been some very loose interpretation of this bill in the blogosphere purely for the sake of politicizing it. Assuming all the sensational claims can be rebutted (so far, so good), you have to ask yourself, who has something to gain by opposing this bill?


As far as not being able to re-enter the country--I sincerely doubt this would happen. I certainly am not an expert on border security procedures, but I'm confident it isn't that myopic.




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

Csi_squirrle_max600_1__max50

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Robocop33 says ...



mz66, the Fact is that this Bill will give the right to the IRS to nullify your Passport without any judicial review or hearing. They can just do it. That takes away your right to due process which is guaranteed in the US Constitution. Additionally they do not have to physically seize your passport, they can invalidate your Passport to which every Citizen is entitled to without due process! What if you are overseas on your vacation of a lifetime when you finally retire? You cannot return to the USA without a valid Passport so what can you do? Sit in whatever country you are currently in and write letters hoping that someday the IRS will get around to you. Like I said, it could easily be a mistake as well. It would not be the first time and certainly not the last time and could affect anyone.



That's not what's in the bill.  Have you read it?  Can you show me where in the bill it says you would not be able to return to the US.  I read the bill and did not see that mentioned anywhere? 

1979_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

HAve you ever been outside the USA and tried to return? You must go through a line and provide a passport from somewhere or you do not get to enter, period! If the passport is revoked, you do not have the right to enter or exit the USA. Oweing the IRS $50K is not just something that 'rich people' can have happen to them. Doesn't take much for the fines and penalties to add up very quickly to huge amounts and as I said, mistakes happen all the time. I see no need for this Bill in the first place other than to give the Government more power.

Crumb_passin_thru_02_1__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

Plausible, but practically speaking I doubt that will fly. In all likelihood they will allow you to enter, but confiscate your passport on entry. Any suggestion otherwise is just fuel for politicizing it.




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

Crumb_passin_thru_02_1__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

Some relevant excerpts from the Department of State's website:


Often, when foreign law enforcement agencies are informed by the Department that the passport of a U.S. citizen in foreign custody has been revoked, they will deport the person under escort because of that person’s status as an undocumented alien.


...


Revocations are coordinated with the Department of Justice and the requesting agency. A passport will not be revoked when the whereabouts of the bearer is unknown. When there is a passport “hit” on an individual within the United States, based on the request, the interested law enforcement agency will be informed of the person’s address so that an arrest can be made.


(This one isn't strictly related to this bill, but it does show that border procedures can and do address these circumstances.)




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

Wredcedar_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

it's been quite a while since I last used my passport, but at that time they just examined it, as far as I could tell they did not check to see if it was valid (like you would do with a driver's licence on a traffic stop), just looked to be sure it was authenetic.  Even if revoked while you were out of the country, you would still have your passport in hand when you tried to return.  As mz66 said,  your passport might be confiscated when you returned to the USA.  Passport has nothing to do with your citizenship, just a means of showing you are a citizen, if you never get one you are still a citizen.

Crumb_passin_thru_02_1__max50

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Some text in the bill actually does address these questions, but the ambiguous wording (the word "may" in the highlighted section) leaves open interpretations that the blogosphere can exploit for their own purposes:


 


‘SEC. 4. AUTHORITY TO DENY OR REVOKE PASSPORT.


 ‘(a) Ineligibility-


  ‘(1) ISSUANCE- Except as provided under subsection (b), upon receiving a certification described in section 7345 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 from the Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of State may not issue a passport or passport card to any individual who has a seriously delinquent tax debt described in such section.


  ‘(2) REVOCATION- The Secretary of State shall revoke a passport or passport card previously issued to any individual described in subparagraph (A).


 ‘(b) Exceptions-


  ‘(1) EMERGENCY AND HUMANITARIAN SITUATIONS- Notwithstanding subsection (a), the Secretary of State may issue a passport or passport card, in emergency circumstances or for humanitarian reasons, to an individual described in subsection (a)(1).


  ‘(2) LIMITATION FOR RETURN TO UNITED STATES- Notwithstanding subsection (a)(2), the Secretary of State, before revocation, may--


   ‘(A) limit a previously issued passport or passport card only for return travel to the United States; or


   ‘(B) issue a limited passport or passport card that only permits return travel to the United States.’.


 




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

Crumb_passin_thru_02_1__max50

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LAzyPD says ...



 I don't think the IRS should be able to take away your right to travel. the IRS already has more than enough ways to stick it to those who don't pay their bill.



That's good, because this bill doesn't do that. It allows them to ask the State Department to take away your right to travel outside the US--that is, until you've paid what you owe. Pay your fair share on time (like the rest of us) and you're golden. If you don't have the money for your taxes should you be spending money on overseas travel anyway?




Bessie Braddock: “Sir, you are drunk.”
Churchill: “Madam, you are ugly. In the morning, I shall be sober.”

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

I just don't think that it's right for one government agency to take away your rights afforded you from another government agency in order to collect what is owed to them. Also some people get into a tax situation that is not their fault. Like capital gains. If your parent dies and leaves you their house and you have to sell it because either they were buried in the house financially or you just can't handle it and want to cash in, then you are going to suddenly find yourself in an interesting tax situation sometimes. I don't think that the government should tax YOU for a house that was bought and paid for with your parents taxed dollars but that's another story.