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Serpa Issues

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Patrolcar_pic_max50

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Posted over 2 years ago

 

I know this has been visited in the past, but that was a while back and I'd like to revisit it, seeing as I've recently been reading about a lot of people having issues with the blackhawk serpa holster and negligent discharges.


I've recently read that some agencies are starting to ban these holsters- both civilian and law enforcement, including FLETC. What they are saying is that by depressing the finger release, there is a chance your finger can end up on the trigger after drawing, causing a negligent discharge. I have tested this myself, with an unloaded weapon of course, and have found the only way for this to happen is to apply constant pressure with your index finger after releasing the weapon, which is not how the holster is intended on being used.


I utilize a level 3 serpa on duty, and use the CQB holster off duty. IMHO, I see this as a training issue, as I have seen ND's with other holsters and different weapons, including a glock and a 1911.


The purpose of my post, is to see who out there is carrying these, who's agencies have banned them, and what everyone's consensus on these is TODAY. Any input is greatly appreciated.


"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. "

White_shirt_max50

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Rated +1 | Posted over 2 years ago

 

Many of my friends use this holster with no complaints. I feel if there are some accidental discharges the issue may be with the person and not the holster. I have yet to have a weapon discharge without the assistance of my finger.

Patrolcar_pic_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

I can't say as if I've ever had a weapon discharge without pulling the trigger either. It bothers me these agencies are just outright banning the holstser. Thanks for the input UncleD


"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. "

Fdoc_badge_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

I use a level 2 SERPA CQC as my duty holster. And I have not had any issues either. I have had other people try and discourge me from using this holster,by telling me some of these discharge stories. However, by the sound of it, it seems that the problem is with the person and not the holster.

1asteriskshield_ezr_max50

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Rated +1 | Posted over 2 years ago

 

I use a level 2 for my off duty carry. No problems in the field nor in qual. Operator error.


You can't cure stupid.

25-1-13-a_1__max50

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Rated +1 | Posted over 2 years ago

 

What I believe it comes down to is the amount of time, if any that the owner of such a holster is practicing his or her draw.  I have the level II version of this holster and constantly practice drawing from the holster.  Because I ALWAYS practice a "MASTER GRIP" also known as "INDEXING" the trigger finger along side of the frame of the weapon just above or along side of the trigger and trigger guard, I have never encountered this problem.  I also use a Bianchi Auto Lock holster for off duty or plain clothes duty and practice the draw from the holster the same way.  Again......... No such issue or problem.


PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE and did I remember to say PRACTICE?  THERE ARE NO EXCUSES FOR NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES OF YOUR WEAPON.  BE FAMILIAR WITH YOUR EQUIPMENT AND KEEP THE BUGGER PICKER OFF OF THE BANG SWITCH UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO FIRE.

Securedownload__4__max50

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Rated +1 | Posted over 2 years ago

 

 My 2 cents..


I use a Level 3 for my Glock 22.  I work at min 12 hour nights, I train 2-3 times a week and I'm also prior Marine Corps and do things like Reaction Drills, firing from different positions, I've tried everything possible with mine.  I actually have 2 because I owned one before I got with my current department and I've put alot of time into both and from my experience, my finger is always in the perfect spot when I draw my Glock.  I've never even come close to a discharge and I have tried (Unloaded not loaded) to cause my finger to do pull the trigger and you really have to go out of your way to get it done.  


Your finger naturally glides to the just above the guard or on the edge of the guard when drawing the weapon.  I love the holster my department issued them to us.  I also carried one in Iraq. 


Sounds like there are some human errors happening and instead of people taking responsibility, they are blaming the gear.  Happens with everything.  Come up on a wreck, the driver alsways says, "Man my breaks just went out" same concept.  


 

Securedownload__4__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

 Not to get off subject, but does anyone carry the level 2 paddle holster as a conceal carry and if so, is it difficult to conceal?  I'm looking for something more than a simple cloth in the pants holster for my conceal carry.  Any input..

Fdoc_badge_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

Saints: I've tried using my level 2 duty holster as a paddle holster for ccw. And in my opnion, it just feels and looks to bulky. It almost is so obviouse that you are carrying. Unless you are wearing some really baggy clothing.

Patrolcar_pic_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

Saintsuperfan25 says ...



 Not to get off subject, but does anyone carry the level 2 paddle holster as a conceal carry and if so, is it difficult to conceal?  I'm looking for something more than a simple cloth in the pants holster for my conceal carry.  Any input..



I carry the level 2 for ny G23 and have one for my duty weapon for off duty. I do find it difficult to conceal unless I'm wearing a hoodie or jacket. It does tend to feel bulky to me. Thanks for the input on the other topic


"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. "

Securedownload__4__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

Racn88 says ...



Saints: I've tried using my level 2 duty holster as a paddle holster for ccw. And in my opnion, it just feels and looks to bulky. It almost is so obviouse that you are carrying. Unless you are wearing some really baggy clothing.


 


I appreciate the info.  


 


 


Securedownload__4__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

Jkaz232 says ...



Saintsuperfan25 says ...



 Not to get off subject, but does anyone carry the level 2 paddle holster as a conceal carry and if so, is it difficult to conceal?  I'm looking for something more than a simple cloth in the pants holster for my conceal carry.  Any input..



I carry the level 2 for ny G23 and have one for my duty weapon for off duty. I do find it difficult to conceal unless I'm wearing a hoodie or jacket. It does tend to feel bulky to me. Thanks for the input on the other topic


 


Appreciate it.. I think I'll go with something a little more concealed.  I'm looking for something I could hide under a slightly larger T shirt or button up per say.  We don't wear many baggy long clothing in the south and it would look more suspicious than just shoving the pistol in my back pocket lol.


Rafngreenblack_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

Saintsuperfan25 says ...



 Not to get off subject, but does anyone carry the level 2 paddle holster as a conceal carry and if so, is it difficult to conceal?  I'm looking for something more than a simple cloth in the pants holster for my conceal carry.  Any input..



I've carried my G27 off duty in this set-up for the past 3 yrs. I conceal it with an untucked T-shirt without any problems (I wear an Under Armor shirt under the T-Shirt, just to keep the grip from rubbing on my side.) I've never had a problem with concealing it, and I'm not a big guy either.

Firearms_xdm_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

I used to use a serpa holster for work (armored truck), but I switched. Not because I ever had any problems with the holster, I just found one I like better. I too practiced drawing an unloaded weapon from my (level 2) serpa holster quite a bit. The only times that I could get my finger to end up inside the trigger guard was if I curled my finger slightly to press the release with my finger tip as if pushing a button. When I kept my finger straight, which feels more natural anyway, I was never able to recreate the problem no matter how much pressure I applied. I agree that this problem is likely due mostly to a lack of training with the holster.

Th_policeavatar_2__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

Of course its a training issue. But the lawyers want everything foolproof with no liability involved. I can remember when Glock first came on the seen. The same thing was said, there  will be NDs. I have used both a 2 and 3 and never had an issue.


""Life is a storm.. You will bask in the sunlight one moment, be shattered on the rocks the next. What makes you a man is what you do when that storm comes"
Alexander Dumas-The Count of Monte Christo

Securedownload__4__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

SGT405 says ...



Of course its a training issue. But the lawyers want everything foolproof with no liability involved. I can remember when Glock first came on the seen. The same thing was said, there  will be NDs. I have used both a 2 and 3 and never had an issue.


 


I feel safer with my glock than I do my "safety" type weapons.  Reality is, it does not fire unless you pull the trigger and your taught from day one don't put your finger on the trigger unless you want to kill what your aiming at.  


 


TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING.....ALL ABOUT TRAINING AND REPETITION.  How many departments had budget cuts and the first thing to go was training? 


Fdoc_badge_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

I agree with Saints.....practice makes perfect !!  The serpa was the first holster I've ever owned. I've had it almost a year now, and practice with it constantly; and haven't shot my foot off yet.. (Thank God)

Shark_with_a_lazerbeam_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

 Great post, I used the Serpa Level 3 holster during my tours in afghanistan. I have never had a problem with the serpa holster its self nor have I met anyone in the military who have had issues. I know alot of people who use the CQB edition(Agents, other MP's) and for outside the wire missions I used a different style serpa that hooked into my plate carrier. Never had an issue, I still view the Serpa series as the best holsters available.

Th_policeavatar_2__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

Saintsuperfan25 says ...



SGT405 says ...



Of course its a training issue. But the lawyers want everything foolproof with no liability involved. I can remember when Glock first came on the seen. The same thing was said, there  will be NDs. I have used both a 2 and 3 and never had an issue.


 


I feel safer with my glock than I do my "safety" type weapons.  Reality is, it does not fire unless you pull the trigger and your taught from day one don't put your finger on the trigger unless you want to kill what your aiming at.  


 


TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING.....ALL ABOUT TRAINING AND REPETITION.  How many departments had budget cuts and the first thing to go was training? 




 


Thats the paradox depts. face.They overcame the Glock issue through training, but refuse to do the same with gear like the SERPAs.


""Life is a storm.. You will bask in the sunlight one moment, be shattered on the rocks the next. What makes you a man is what you do when that storm comes"
Alexander Dumas-The Count of Monte Christo

Newpatch_sq90_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

I carry a Serpa 2 on duty for my glock, and off duty for my Sig 229, never had a problem.  I think the problem they are having is totally operator error.


 


Sounds like a loose nut on the trigger.


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Just_passin__thru_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

After shooting 10's of thousands of rounds with a Bianchi Level 2 holster, an old level one leather holster and a SWAT thigh nylon holster, I tried to acclimate to the Serpa.


For me, I was unsuccessful. I didn't feel comfortable learning to re-index my finger to release the gun. It didn't seem natural. My baseline was to draw the weapon at least 1,000 times in a row successfully. Since I didn't even meet my own  standard, I sold my Serpa to someone younger with more time on their hands to acclimate and develop that muscle memory.


Something needs to be said for muscle memory. The more you adapt to your gear, the harder it is to change.


How about you guys who strap on a Taser on the opposite site or low on your leg. Tell me how natural that whole thing is.


When I was on SWAT, my primary weapon was a Benelli M1 Super 90 Entry Shotgun. It took me some time to transition from racking a old pump shotgun and just letting the Benelli operate on its own due to being semi-auto.


It's already been said: Training, training, training.


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Securedownload__4__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

JIMROC says ...



I carry a Serpa 2 on duty for my glock, and off duty for my Sig 229, never had a problem.  I think the problem they are having is totally operator error.


 


Sounds like a loose nut on the trigger.


 


I agree....All operator error which is usually the case in most things.  This is where proper training and the "want to" a person has to have in them to be a good Officer and put that extra effort in to ensure they come home every day.


Securedownload__4__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

TheSarge says ...



After shooting 10's of thousands of rounds with a Bianchi Level 2 holster, an old level one leather holster and a SWAT thigh nylon holster, I tried to acclimate to the Serpa.


For me, I was unsuccessful. I didn't feel comfortable learning to re-index my finger to release the gun. It didn't seem natural. My baseline was to draw the weapon at least 1,000 times in a row successfully. Since I didn't even meet my own  standard, I sold my Serpa to someone younger with more time on their hands to acclimate and develop that muscle memory.


Something needs to be said for muscle memory. The more you adapt to your gear, the harder it is to change.


How about you guys who strap on a Taser on the opposite site or low on your leg. Tell me how natural that whole thing is.


When I was on SWAT, my primary weapon was a Benelli M1 Super 90 Entry Shotgun. It took me some time to transition from racking a old pump shotgun and just letting the Benelli operate on its own due to being semi-auto.


It's already been said: Training, training, training.


 


Well said..


And a great point on muscle memory and someone like yourself who had already developed such a memory on another type of gear.  I'm sure it wasn't natural at all.  Myself, I never trainined with a level 1 or 2.  I was always the level 3 Serpa from the go and now I can draw the thing like its not even secured in the holster.  Its actually become quite the past time for those who challenge me in drawing.  I've outdrawn guys using level 1 and 2 holsters.  I've developed such muslce memory for the thing, my hand goes into position without even thinking about it. 


Having your own standards on a piece of gear is great advice 2, just because its the newest and greatest, if you can't use it correctly and to your advantage, it will get you killed.


Patrolcar_pic_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

TheSarge says ...



 


Something needs to be said for muscle memory. The more you adapt to your gear, the harder it is to change.



 


I totally agree! I've seen a couple officers now not be able to adapt to the serpa because of carrying one single different holster for most of their career.


As far as FLETC, this is one section from the memo I've seen regarding the serpa... "In light of these events and in accordance with OI policy, specifically Part 2, Section 2, Subsection IV B, NTEOB is suspending all use of the Blackhawk SERPA Auto Lock System holster by OI agents acting in an official, on-duty capacity. NTEOB will thoroughly research and evaluate the safety and effectiveness of this holster system and report on its findings."


No clue what they're referring to, but no, it doesn't look like a total ban from FLETC. No offense to any of the feds out there, or anyone with fletc, but I see it as a knee jerk reaction. Nothing drives me bat **** crazy more than a knee jerk reaction to someone doing something stupid.


"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. "

Fdoc_badge_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

AMEN !!! to everything posted in the last 24 hours on this. I agree 100 %. Great posts people.

Batman_max600_1__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

My son uses a Serpa on duty as do 3 of my fellow Officers. I had my concerns regarding this holster such as snow or debris getting behind the index finger lever. Has anyone ever had a problem with this and if you did how did you over come it. I carry the Bianchi level 2 for my S&W M&P 40. But I am thinking about going to the Serpa do to the fact that the folks on my Dept and my son love the dang things and say their draws are a lot faster. So I am leaving this to all of you folks to try and sway me to the other side. LOL Be safe


Bad stuff happens to good people, handle it and overcome.
My motto for life:
Let go and let GOD,
Only HE can control everything.

25-1-13-a_1__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

gudercop says ...



My son uses a Serpa on duty as do 3 of my fellow Officers. I had my concerns regarding this holster such as snow or debris getting behind the index finger lever. Has anyone ever had a problem with this and if you did how did you over come it. I carry the Bianchi level 2 for my S&W M&P 40. But I am thinking about going to the Serpa do to the fact that the folks on my Dept and my son love the dang things and say their draws are a lot faster. So I am leaving this to all of you folks to try and sway me to the other side. LOL Be safe



Like any product, new, old but new to you, the only way you are going to find out if you like it or not would be to get one and find out.  I liked mine and bought two more for my other belts.   For me, the draw from the holster is about as natural as anything I could imagine.  When I re-holster the weapon, the opening to the Serpa is easy to locate and the firearm just drops right in a secured condition.  There is no snap to mess with.  The level III has a hood but like the level II, the firearm is secured enough without it to allow you to handle business in the short term if necessary.

1asteriskshield_ezr_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

TheSarge says ...



After shooting 10's of thousands of rounds with a Bianchi Level 2 holster, an old level one leather holster and a SWAT thigh nylon holster, I tried to acclimate to the Serpa.


For me, I was unsuccessful. I didn't feel comfortable learning to re-index my finger to release the gun. It didn't seem natural. My baseline was to draw the weapon at least 1,000 times in a row successfully. Since I didn't even meet my own  standard, I sold my Serpa to someone younger with more time on their hands to acclimate and develop that muscle memory.


Something needs to be said for muscle memory. The more you adapt to your gear, the harder it is to change.


How about you guys who strap on a Taser on the opposite site or low on your leg. Tell me how natural that whole thing is.


When I was on SWAT, my primary weapon was a Benelli M1 Super 90 Entry Shotgun. It took me some time to transition from racking a old pump shotgun and just letting the Benelli operate on its own due to being semi-auto.


It's already been said: Training, training, training.



I strap up my TASER on the weak side and no it does not feel natural, you are correct about that. I have drawn and painted only twice, never put darts in anyone yet. Thing is, I keep my Maglight on my strong side........in plain view. There is something to be said about the Maglight. Folks respect the fact that they don't feel it up against their noggin, arms, legs, etc.   


You can't cure stupid.

Wredcedar_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

TheSarge says ...



After shooting 10's of thousands of rounds with a Bianchi Level 2 holster, an old level one leather holster and a SWAT thigh nylon holster, I tried to acclimate to the Serpa.


For me, I was unsuccessful. I didn't feel comfortable learning to re-index my finger to release the gun. It didn't seem natural. My baseline was to draw the weapon at least 1,000 times in a row successfully. Since I didn't even meet my own  standard, I sold my Serpa to someone younger with more time on their hands to acclimate and develop that muscle memory.


Something needs to be said for muscle memory. The more you adapt to your gear, the harder it is to change.


How about you guys who strap on a Taser on the opposite site or low on your leg. Tell me how natural that whole thing is.


When I was on SWAT, my primary weapon was a Benelli M1 Super 90 Entry Shotgun. It took me some time to transition from racking a old pump shotgun and just letting the Benelli operate on its own due to being semi-auto.


It's already been said: Training, training, training.



I carry my taser on the left side, but in a left hand holster, and draw it left handed.  Thus the muscle memory for the left hand (serpa taser holster) is different than for the right hand (Safariland level 3 holster) and helps to keep the distinction between taser and pistol very clear.

Batman_max600_1__max50

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Rate This | Posted over 2 years ago

 

I carry my taser on my left side in a cross draw. I can access it with my left hand and have seveal times and deployed it by transition to my right hand. PM me if you want the whole story. not going to get into it here. But it works well for me and several of the Officers on my dept.   


Bad stuff happens to good people, handle it and overcome.
My motto for life:
Let go and let GOD,
Only HE can control everything.

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