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Knowledge For The Family

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Police-19_max50

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Posted about 7 years ago

 

I was recently removed out of a Texas Concealed Carry class for informing the instructor how wrong he was. I am a police officer and this civilian instructor was trying to inform this class that it is OK for them to pull their weapon and use it against a police officer. The question was "If I am getting beat down by the police can I shoot them?" and " If I see someone getting beat down by the police can I shoot them?". The instructor stated over and over again that they have the right to shoot a officer and that the police officer is just like them as for rules to carry and use of their weapon. What do you all think about this I would love to hear some feedback.


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9-11-logo_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

I'm NOT a cop, I don't know a thing about that class, but-- Holy Moley! That CAN'T be right.

I think that instructor ought to be reported to his higher ups. And he should be challenged to show the laws that set the precedent he is claiming.

The school should be forced to contact previous students to rectify that error, or face being hauled into court if something bad happens because of that.

2004_0304macandanna0005_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

I don't believe we as officers of the law go around looking for people to beat up. If you are resisting a law inforcement officer and force is used on you in order to gain control of a situation and the officer is working within the limits of the law, meaning he or she has probable cause and has identified themselves as a police officer. You are already going to be charge with resisting arrest and quite possibly assult on a police officer. By pulling a weapon of any kind you are looking at any number of felony charges, depending on what takes place next. Every once in awhile you will find someone that seems to think they can test the law. Too bad as this could result in some serious charges for some, maybe worst. That instuctor needs to be turned in. M.Cline

3734983337_1__max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

could someone tell me where this idiot is so i can beat the stupid out of him.

Police-19_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

ycso1290 That is exactly the point I made to the class and the instructor and would not rest until he excepted he was wrong. I was escorted out of the class.


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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Taken straight from the Texas Penal Code. Pay paticular attention to subsection C 1&2. Report that instructor...he's going to get one, if not more, of his students killed.

§ 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in
Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against
another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is
immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or
attempted use of unlawful force.
(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;
(2) to resist an arrest or search that the actor knows
is being made by a peace officer, or by a person acting in a peace
officer's presence and at his direction, even though the arrest or
search is unlawful, unless the resistance is justified under
Subsection (c);
(3) if the actor consented to the exact force used or
attempted by the other;
(4) if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted
use of unlawful force, unless:
(A) the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly
communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing
he cannot safely abandon the encounter; and
(B) the other nevertheless continues or attempts
to use unlawful force against the actor; or
(5) if the actor sought an explanation from or
discussion with the other person concerning the actor's differences
with the other person while the actor was:
(A) carrying a weapon in violation of Section
46.02; or
(B) possessing or transporting a weapon in
violation of Section 46.05.
(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is
justified:
(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the
peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts
to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search;
and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably
believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself
against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use
of greater force than necessary.
(d) The use of deadly force is not justified under this
subchapter except as provided in Sections 9.32, 9.33, and 9.34.

1979_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Great research GTS! Andy, take a copy of that code and read it to his class. Do this in an OFFICIAL capacity as a Police Officer and dare him to 'escort' you from the class. He is wrong and needs to be reported AND publicly corrected.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

I also think that an editorial in the local newspaper would "assist" in correcting his attitude.

3734983337_1__max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

one of the scariest things about being plain cloths or undercover is having to take some one down and an offduty or young cop not noticing the take down procedurs we use, and trying to stop me or shooting me. now we have gunho non cops out there trying to us their new found powers to help people... hate to tell them that im not alloud to die right now. . this type of attitude will most likely cost them their life.

Patrol_car_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Wow! I admire your stand against that "NUT"!! Yes I agree the higher administration should be notified.
I hope that what was said before you were "thrown out" has made the other people in the class, think really hard about it, and educate themselves in "the Law"!!

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

I checked Andy's profile, he's in Conroe, TX. Thankfully, it's not very close to me. I'll sleep better knowing that I probably won't have to engage in a gun battle with his recent "graduates".

Me-and-kyle_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

"(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified: (1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer’s (or other person’s) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary."

I CAN NOT believe that they even have this as part of their self-defense law. This is open to great interpretation and could easily be used against an officer who used reasonable force but the actor believes that it is unjustified, like they all do! I do not believe the use of force to resist a police officer is ever justified. The instructor might be using this as his justification in his class. I think that ALL Texas officers should fight to have this removed from Texas law!!!

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

I'm no legal expert, but I think it was added for 4th ammendment reasons.

ETA: I would *highly* recommend that all officers check their state's laws for similar statutes.

Photo_user_blank_big

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

So, apparently everything IS bigger in Texas, including the bungholes. Just make sure when the lawsuit comes to court it is "The estate of P. Head vs. Conroe". Luck to you TX coppers, sounds like you might need it.

Police-19_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Hey Guys thanks for all the info and input you are giving me on this. I am new to the site I think this site is a great tool for us as LEO's to network. The bad thing about the instructor was he is the owner and operator of the so called range. I have only been a police officer for alittle over a year but have been in the law enforcement community for sometime now serving in the Army (3 years )and then for the famous Texas Department of Criminal Justice as a CO (7 years). I like the idea I have this as a tool to turn to seasoned officers for help. I however did write an article for the local paper but was told by the editors that they would not print it based on my observation alone. So all I can do is pray I never come across one of his graduates while on duty. I have a family to go home to.


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Brian_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Send The Nutty Professer to us in Boston and have him test his theory on the blue blood streets of Boston!

9-11-logo_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Andy, are there many LEOs in your area, who could join you in expressing concern?

I would think the public would pay attention if you all presented a united front on this matter, and spoke up against the accuracy of this guy. I know I would not patronize a range that officers had spoken against.

Photo_user_banned_big

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

I was taught in a law class (years ago) I took that if you were being placed in an unlawful arrest you could resist by saying "I don't believe you have a right to arrest ect." to the Officer. We were told you had to express this to the Officer to be able to bring it up in court but, you couldn't resist physically. You would have to go along with the Officer if still arresting and explain in court that you believed the arrest was unlawful.


In like manner the spirit also joins in with help for our weakness, for the problem of what we should pray for as we need to we do not know but the spirit itself pleads for us with groanings uttered.

No man serving as a soldier involves himself in the commercial businesses of life, in order that he may gain the approval of the one who enrolled him as a soldier. 5. Moreover, if anyone conten

Img_3413_sq90_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

One of the questions mentioned in the original post was “If I am getting beat down by the police can I shoot them?”. I would say if you have a gun on you and all you are getting is a "beat down", you are fortunate. You could be shot. While I am not a LEO, I get so tired of people coming up with excuses to fight LE and people who think they know the law because they are CJ or Law students/professors. They are usually wrong (unless they are LE and then they usually know enough not to fight). I too would keep working at making sure the right answer goes public. I pray for your safety as well as all LE wherever a student who learned this may be. By you challenging him in your class may have helped those in your class but what about those before your class. To all LEO, STAY SAFE!

Police-19_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

I have brought it up to several officers and they all seem to have the same idea as you all have. Where I am with this now is contacting the DPS which issues his license to teach this class and try and have it pulled.


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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Sounds like you're on the right path.

1979_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

That is one of the main things to do, get his license pulled. The paper sounds like they are worried about losing an advertiser and not concerned about free expression! I would also talk to your Chief and Sheriff about this idiot and what he is teaching, I am sure they caould bring serious pressure as well.

M_ecdbc17245387b1b8aacef6197d23d4b_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

If someone pulls their weapon and uses it on me, they better have all personal affairs in order or be gone when my partners arrive on scene........End of Story! We have a facility in Rusk Tx for this idiot if he lives long enough.

English_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Is your instructors name Michael Moore?

Police-19_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

No it was not Henry his name was Juan Rodriquez and located here in Conroe.


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English_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

I really hope this guy is removed from his positioin. Keep up your fight LawMan!

Police-19_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

I dont about other states but the concealed carry for civilians in my opinion is not a good idea in most cases. The civilians do not go through any type of psych exam as long as their CCH is clean they can carry. I know of several cases the license holders have been bi-polar and other types of disorders and yet still are able to carry their weapons. I know its supposed to make people feel safe but how safe do you feel knowing these types of people carry loaded weapons?


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English_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

In IL you have to own a FOID card to purchase guns and ammo. And if you live in chicago you cant own guns or ammo, unless ur an officer. But we cant carry anyways. The concealed carry permit that i'm appying for requires you to prove your training, and fingerprints. So people who are bipolar or are criminals would never be able to aquire it. With this permit, its recognized in about 30 states.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/index.html

Photo_user_blank_big

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Tx, how about assuming that the person you are dealing with is armed until proven otherwise.? The right to possess arms to assure a free state is one of the basis that this country was founded upon. Your theory is very like the boot camp team building theory, if one person steps out of line, punish all. Sounds fair, right? Check the violent crime stats in Florida, from before CCW issue to after. One time, a dude kicked me in the nuggets, so does that mean I should punch every dude I meet in the face? Hope not, I'm sensitive. All law abiding Americans should be required to carry a firearm to protect themselves, their families, and their property. There is no way for any police force to be proactive enough to stop all crime in the area that they patrol. Maybe if we dropped a few more bad guys, the violent crime stats would go down and we would stop burying so many bro's and sis's. Makes me sick to talk about it.

Police-19_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Jack I am unclear if you read what the original post was. I am not against civilians carrying weapons at all. I just would like to see more checks to be done. Not everyone has the need to carry around a loaded weapon. We kind of got off the subject here in the last few post.


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