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1911 for Duty Carry

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Berettaumbrella

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Posted about 4 years ago

 

Hello to all.


I have a simple question for all in agencies that are allowed to carry 1911's.


How can I convince my agency to allow 1911's as a duty carry option? They seem to be scared of single action weapons.


Thanks in advance and be safe out there!

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

thats because they are stupid

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

Our department policy was re-written recently. The only requirement is that our duty weapon must be .40 cal or above. Maybe you could get your department to adopt a similar policy.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

start reading here, just remember you might have to spend some cash to get that gun to function well. Not only they have a tendency to double feed, something a glock (yuck) doesnt.


 


http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-967466.html


 


Ill stick to my kimber, but a 1911 is a close 2nd

White_shirt_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

I carried a 1911 for just a short while. I was uncomfortable carrying it cocked and locked.

Batman_max600_1__max50

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

Me personally I wouldnot want to carry one, to many things to undo to be able to shoot it. I like my point and shoot guns, a sig 220 and a S&W M&P in .40 caliber. They are easy and function very nicely. My Sheriff and Undersheriff both carry the 1911 and the Kimber they like them I do not. They are a good weapon just not for me.


Bad stuff happens to good people, handle it and overcome.
My motto for life:
Let go and let GOD,
Only HE can control everything.

Motor_cop_comic_max160_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

I was always comfortable carrying my 1911. Our policy changed a few years ago, and now we must carry a department issued sidearm. I have had very few malfunctions in the 30 years of carrying/shooting various 1911 type pistols. It is not a gun for the occassional shooter, however. Right now, sitting in my holster is an excellent HK USP in 45 caliber...have no complaints with it at all!   I believe that is is a better duty gun than the 1911 for a number of reasons. I like the 1911, but, I have to agree that there are better combat guns now, both from a safety and mag capacity point of view. I am not sure that I would want to switch back.


"You can't lead from behind" Gen'l James Longstreet, CSA

1979_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

Carrying a single action today is simply the wrong thing to do. The actual Colt 1911a is not something I want to carry. Now there are many well built 1911 "style" autos that are fine duty weapons as they are also DA/SA. If a round misfires you can always pull the trigger again to see if it goes off instead of racking another round or pulling back the hammer again. A SA is just a bad choice. I happen to love my 1911 and shoot it for fun all the time but would never carry it as my duty or even off-duty weapon. I also have a Taurus 24/7 DS that is 1911 'style' weapon but it is a DA/SA with a decocker that is tight, accurate, doesn't jam, and hold a total of 13 rds. Big difference.

Mandy_and_me_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

I love the 1911 but lets face it....its an anitquated design. I have to agree with some of the others. Why carry a 1911 when your choices for a newer more efficent design are so broad. I know it is all about whats your favorite flavor but I am all about taking advantage of modern technology. The 1911 is without a doubt combat proven however so are some new designs. Why carry 8 round mags when you can have 13 or 15 round mags and you dont have to screw with a mechanical safety either. But if the 1911 is your thing then more power to you...just take a sec and think of why you are carrying it? To look cool or because you know without a shadow of a doubt that this weapon is the best tool for the job. If the answer is yes then rock the 1911 all day...just be sure you train train train with it like any other weapon.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

The 1911 is the weapon of a warrior.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

GTS197 says ...



The 1911 is the weapon of a warrior.



So is the glock 17, the Sig sauer 229, the S&W M&P 45 and so on the weapon doesn't make the warrior, the warrior makes the weapon.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

Use the KISS principle and carry a Para-USA if you have a hard on for the 1911 style gun.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

Being an advocate of all firearms, and owning at least one of every major manufacturers pistols, I agree with what has been posted; Sig, Glock, HK, Para, CZ, Beretta, Springfield, Colt, S&W.......all do the job.


I was just stirring the pot 

Berettaumbrella

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

I'm hoping to win the battle also! I think the biggest problem they have is the "cocked and locked". Our policy currently states, whatever brand we choose(within the approved list), it has to be double/single action, with a decocking lever. Although we now issue Glock and they dont have a decocking lever. Or an external hammer for that matter!


I'm thinking I need a professional with a presentation!


Thnak you all for the replies...and keep the ideas coming!

Evil_max50

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Rated +1 | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

Glock does not fit the policy.  Its not DA its not SA its not DA/SA.  Its a safe action.  It is essentially carried cocked and unlocked. Many agencies are now authorizing a 1911 type for personal purchase.  I carried a Kimber TLE II for a while.  It has a grip safety a thumb safety and a firing pin safety.  All of which are easy to disengage.  Glock standard trigger is 5.5 lbs.  Kimber is about 4-5 lbs.  If the argument that cocked and locked is unsafe then in that sense a modern 1911 is safer than a Glock. 


My argument is that DA/SA is the worst type to have.  Be it SA, DAO or Glock Safe Action a consistent trigger is the best choice.  How many times do you see people thumb cocking a standard DA?  How many times to you see people throwing the first round?  Granted practice and training will over come that.  Think of how much less they need with consistency.


If you are going to sell the idea then put some criteria into.  IE No race runs, only guns from these manufacturers, must have firing pin safety, must or cant etc etc etc


You have the rest of your life to solve the problem, how long your life lasts depends on how well you do it. -Clint Smith

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Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

scurge slam dunk, 3 pts good answer

Evil_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

Let me clarify just a wee bit.  I own a Glock I'm sure I'll buy a few more.  I am issued a Glock and feel just as comfortable with a Glock or a quality 1911.  I failed to point out if they are willing to forgo policy to allow a Glock then whats the BFD about permitting a 1911?


You have the rest of your life to solve the problem, how long your life lasts depends on how well you do it. -Clint Smith

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Just_passin__thru_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

bmorgan says ...



I have over the years ru into a lot of officers who carry a 1911.  More over they carry a 1911 that is personally valuable to them.  They say the gun is "their baby"  or something similiar.  I know I am barking up an empty tree here but WHY? 


Two why's actually.


  # 1 Why would you carry a gun on duty that is "your baby"? A duty gun is a tool.  It is gonna be banged up and scratched up in fights, knocked against doors and walls, rained and snowed on, possibley stolen, and if you ever use it it is gone forever as "states evidence".


#2 Why would you want to carry a gun that puts you at such a disadvantage as a 1911 does?  Now before you 1911 fans all start screaming please read the rest of this.  The 1911 is a fine gun.  It is a pleasure to shoot it is comfortable, and it looks nice.  However, it is no longer the best COMBAT gun available.  A glock, XD, M&P ect, all have much higher capacity, less moving parts (means less malfunctions), less manual safeties (means less fine motor skills to shoot), are lighter to carry, and are cheaper to buy.  So why put yourself at a disadvantage by not carrying a better combat gun?


++++++++++++++++

This is a pretty phunny post, Rick. Cuz it's true.


I had two 1911's. One was a Colt Gold Cup that was tuned under the hands of the finest gunsmith in the nation (at that time). It lived under my pillow or close by .... 'my baby'.


My other one was my 'Bee-och'. Working Springfield Armory with Gunsite parts, Armaloy and other nice features. It snuggled me closely in a real leather Tex Shoemaker Level 1 (yes....Level 1) holster. Cocked and locked. Handy dandy. Very much liked the old 1911. Limited to a single stack but who knew better....?


Then, back in the early 90's we went to the Sig Sauer. 226 or 220, ... your choice. And Rick's comment was the reason we went to it: It was the 'new' combat handgun for our agency. We have since transitioned to the Glock.


Personally, I wouldn't push for a 1911 duty weapon. The reasons are legion. Imagine the old flintlock guys being handed a Colt Peacemaker. "What the h*** is this? I'm doing just fine with my single shot, five rounds per minute flintlock. No thank you."


Make sense?


 


The Guy !
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Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

Next year will be the 100th anniversity of the 1911, what else was around when it was introduced, the 03A3 rifle was 8 years old, nobody wants it any more, though a fine rifle it was, also the colt 38 revolver ( thats what the 1911 replaced) and the (I think), winchester 'thumb buster' shotgun, with a visible hammer and the abiltiy to be fird by holding the trigger down and pumping the gun, these , too have gone the way of the dodo.

The_cops_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

And over the next 100 years we'll see if the Glock can stick around as well as the 1911 and the HIgh Power. 

Just_passin__thru_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

Well all know that things are cyclic: Things come back around after a fashion.


Wonder if the 1911 will swing back into the current fold with some clever double-stack design, redundant safeties and half the parts.


It could work.


 


The Guy !
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Honoring the Fallen

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Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

TheSarge says ...



Well all know that things are cyclic: Things come back around after a fashion.


Wonder if the 1911 will swing back into the current fold with some clever double-stack design, redundant safeties and half the parts.


It could work.


 



maybe something like this: http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_pistol.php?id=71

Just_passin__thru_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

Casscocop says ...



TheSarge says ...



Well all know that things are cyclic: Things come back around after a fashion.


Wonder if the 1911 will swing back into the current fold with some clever double-stack design, redundant safeties and half the parts.


It could work.


 



maybe something like this: http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_pistol.php?id=71


++++++++++++++++


Yup.


Nice.


Maybe a little long for daily LEO work. I'd like to see a behind the grip profile to see where they stash all those extra rounds.



The Guy !
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Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

TheSarge says ...



Casscocop says ...



TheSarge says ...



Well all know that things are cyclic: Things come back around after a fashion.


Wonder if the 1911 will swing back into the current fold with some clever double-stack design, redundant safeties and half the parts.


It could work.


 



maybe something like this: http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_pistol.php?id=71


++++++++++++++++


Yup.


Nice.


Maybe a little long for daily LEO work. I'd like to see a behind the grip profile to see where they stash all those extra rounds.




But think of the intimidation factor (dirty Harry factor) when you point it at someone, and i bet the grip is a fatty ( and not in the CA Medical marijuana sense), and it would probably double as a boat anchor, though not as good as a desert eagle for that.

Leo_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 3 years ago

 

There is nothing wrong with having a 1911 as a duty weapon, just know its limitations. Yes it is a 100 year old design.


I have a Kimber TLE II that I carry off duty. I prefer the 1911 because it is a full size weapon that fires the .45 round, but is very narrow and easy to conceal under just a t-shirt in summertime. Yes 13 round mags would be nice, but 8+1 will have to due. I am very proficent with it, and trust me and my wife and kids safety to it. My 1911 always goes bang when I press the trigger. I have over 9k through it now, 3 spring sets replaced, and a refinish. Yes 1911 fanboy here.


On duty I would want a higher capacity .40 or .45 cal weapon.  Glock or HK would be my first choices, if you really want a 1911 on duty practice with it a lot, and check the springs and extractor after it is shot.

Policelinkbadge_max160_max160_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 3 years ago

 

For starters, a Glock, one of the most common weapons in law enforcement, is condition 0 at all times. Pull the gun out and fire the weapon. Most 1911 users carry condition 1. As long as the 1911 user has trained enough to take off the thumb safety while unholstering you are fine.


The 1911 might be 100 years old, but why is it so widely used? Why do so many departments, agencies, and special operational forces still use it? It worked, period. It also has a trigger that is widely accepted as the best trigger ever designed for a handgun. I personally like my Glock and the HK SA (why I carry my USP in condition 1 also) more for some reason.


The biggest concern is that if you are going to stake your life on it you had better practice enough to make those 8 rounds count. You don't have the luxury of having 16 rounds like a Glock 22 for example.


If you have an accidental disharge it's your fault, not your guns. It's ignorant to say the 1911 is unsafe. You do not need a DA weapon to not accidentally fire it. Take your finger off the bang hook and there is no need to worry.




Amateurs train until they get it right, Professionals train until they can't get it wrong.

Evil_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 3 years ago

 

According to my instructor manuals and what I teach and what I have been taught there are 3 conditions of carry and 0 was not one of them.


1 Full mag, chambered round. Fight ready condition


2 Full mag, chamber empty (typically how long guns are stored on patrol)


3 Empty mag, empty chamber (this is how the are stored in lockers or other place where there are not going to be used)


 


When I carry a Glock, a 1911, a Beretta, a Sig, any handheld lead flinger they are all carrying in condition 1


You have the rest of your life to solve the problem, how long your life lasts depends on how well you do it. -Clint Smith

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Policelinkbadge_max160_max160_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 3 years ago

 

Scurge says ...



According to my instructor manuals and what I teach and what I have been taught there are 3 conditions of carry and 0 was not one of them.


1 Full mag, chambered round. Fight ready condition


2 Full mag, chamber empty (typically how long guns are stored on patrol)


3 Empty mag, empty chamber (this is how the are stored in lockers or other place where there are not going to be used)


 


When I carry a Glock, a 1911, a Beretta, a Sig, any handheld lead flinger they are all carrying in condition 1



Very true if you are looking at every handgun, however if you look at it for a 1911 or hammer fired/external safety handgun ONLY..


0 = Full mag, chambered round, hammer back, safety off


1 = Full mag, chambered round, hammer back, safety on (Cocked and Locked)


2 = Full mag, chambered round, hammer down, safety on


3 = Full mag, chamber empty, hammer down, safety on


4 = Empty mag, chamber empty, hammer down, safety on


 


Because the Glock uses a Striker firing system and lacks the external you can't look at them in the same manner.. However, if you were to fit a loaded Glock into this way of looking at it, it would fall under Condition 0 because..


The Striker pin is always back and ready if it's chambered and because there are no safeties to disengage. Yes there is the trigger safety but it's being disengaged without thinking about it.


Regardless, put your 1911 into condition 1, train yourself to drop the thumb safety second nature as you draw, and you have a weapon that is as safe as a Glock (if not safer) and it can be fired in the same amount of time.


Amateurs train until they get it right, Professionals train until they can't get it wrong.

Evil_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 3 years ago

 

I kind of had a idea that was what you were referring to.  I was in a non direct way trying to make a point when using terminology keep in mind its going to be different depending on an individuals training and experience. 


I train to disengage my safeties (1911 & AR) when I have made the conscience to fire.  Whether its during the draw or from a guard/ready/low ready (or whatever anyone calls refers to it as) position


You have the rest of your life to solve the problem, how long your life lasts depends on how well you do it. -Clint Smith

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Berettaumbrella

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Rate This | Posted about 3 years ago

 

 I think it is safe to say that the 1911 is still a good choice, if it weren't, we would not be having this conversation. People everywhere are still carrying them for one reason or another, LEO, personal protection, or both. We have realized that if aint broke don't fix it!


 


I appreciate all of the replies and suggestions! Here is the progress so far.


We have just placed a 1911 loving Officer in training and they are now working on our brass to allow a presentation. 


Keep the suggestions coming!