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feelings on National Guard/reserve military police

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Posted about 4 years ago

 

Hi, I'm new to this forum and had a few questions on my mind. I've read comments in other forums that only sworn LEO's should be allowed to carry badges. In my military reserve unit, we have our badges stitched onto our uniforms and do not have badge numbers. I've also heard people comment that since we are only National Guard members, we are not law enforcement or real cops.  The Military has different titles for their military police and I think that confuses a lot of people. For instance, the Air Force refers to their LE as Security Forces or Security Police. ( some members just say cops in regards to the SF members). The Army has Military Police and Navy has Master at Arms.


I have found this perception that we are not LE by some members of the general public insulting. What are some thoughts on this?


Thank you and be safe out there.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

I've been here a while and have never run across a thread that said only sworn LEO be allowed to carry badges, I have run across threads where it was said that only sworn LEO's could carry firearms concealed and off duty across state lines, if you could indicate the thread(s) you are talking about I would appreciate it.  Also it would be nice  if you would post an introduction in the INTRODUCTION  forum, so we could get to know you better.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

I have been in LE for 35 years, Army Special Forces for 12 years and here are some thoughts for you to ponder:


"Sworn PEACE Officers" who serve the GENERAL PUBLIC are "sworn" in that they hold to a different standard and protocols than military and private enforcement forces. Generally, LE officers are categorized as "having arrest powers and authority," as opposed to Military, having restricted duties (limitations) reserved to MILITARY PERSONNEL only. Even many Federal Officers (such as Park Police, VA Police, GSA Officers) are restricted to enforcement of federally related infractions. Reciprocity is sometimes accorded these folks depending on the scenarios and locale (special circumstances) to detain, or arrest for obvious felonies-but in these cases, Citizen powers are usually more powerful than federal cops in these categories for misdemeanor arrest. There are federal "JURISDICTION" issues that usually define what the powers officers have (badged or not). In summary, these are the defining issues: 1. Jurisdiction (Federal crimes/Statutes, State, County and Local, Armed/Unarmed authority, Contractual Issues), 2. Standard Police Training (832pc Search, seizure, arrest- See #1 Notes), 3. Agreements (usually in foreign countries, such as Embassy duty, private security forces, U.S. Military, Dept. of State) and 4. Local (Public, Private, Military, Civilian).


Hope this helps define the issue a little better for you. Badges mean nothing other than a requirement to identify the authority of the office to which enforcement is applied or operated from (a legal requirement, such as a uniform)

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

Casscocop, I apologize for not posting an introduction thread before posting here. I have since done that. The thread I was talking about was regarding TSA officers being issued badges similiar to LE. I don't remember what forum it was under or the date it was posted.  From what I remember reading, there was a lot of opposition to them having badges.  Yes, I know they are not sworn LE, I was just surprised at the 'animosity' (for lack of a better word) that LE had towards TSA agents. For the most part, my contacts with them have been fine.  My uncle works as a supervisor for TSA and he loves it. He's also a retired Marine, his standards on professionalism are really high.  Thank you for repyling to my thread.


Robinsage, thank you for the input.


 


 

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

Robinsage says ...



I have been in LE for 35 years, Army Special Forces for 12 years and here are some thoughts for you to ponder:


"Sworn PEACE Officers" who serve the GENERAL PUBLIC are "sworn" in that they hold to a different standard and protocols than military and private enforcement forces. Generally, LE officers are categorized as "having arrest powers and authority," as opposed to Military, having restricted duties (limitations) reserved to MILITARY PERSONNEL only. Even many Federal Officers (such as Park Police, VA Police, GSA Officers) are restricted to enforcement of federally related infractions. Reciprocity is sometimes accorded these folks depending on the scenarios and locale (special circumstances) to detain, or arrest for obvious felonies-but in these cases, Citizen powers are usually more powerful than federal cops in these categories for misdemeanor arrest. There are federal "JURISDICTION" issues that usually define what the powers officers have (badged or not). In summary, these are the defining issues: 1. Jurisdiction (Federal crimes/Statutes, State, County and Local, Armed/Unarmed authority, Contractual Issues), 2. Standard Police Training (832pc Search, seizure, arrest- See #1 Notes), 3. Agreements (usually in foreign countries, such as Embassy duty, private security forces, U.S. Military, Dept. of State) and 4. Local (Public, Private, Military, Civilian).


Hope this helps define the issue a little better for you. Badges mean nothing other than a requirement to identify the authority of the office to which enforcement is applied or operated from (a legal requirement, such as a uniform)



Outstanding response to an often posted "why are we not treated like real cops" question that comes up about once a month concerning military police.


This response should be electronically saved as a response each and every time the topic surfaces...as it will continue to

Dcp01604_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

BlueAFK9,


As someone who has served in the military for 23 years,  9 of them with Air Force Security Forces, 15 years as a law enforcement officer for a city and the past 6 years with a Federal Agency.  Your training in Military Police and how the military trains investigators is where a lot of us learned how to be a good police officer.  PSD Team Leader is mostly on the button, but military members on several bases have concurrent jurisdiction to enforce civilian law, especially traffic infractions, misdemeanor and felonies.  I have been on two bases that specifically worked that way and we were certified to answer calls for those areas.  Several states takes your training and requires you to only to receive state specific laws in a modified academy so you can receive your certification in the State.  As for most states, Federal agencies have arrest powers and are usually listed in the Code of Criminal Procedures for that State as of who is are peace officers.  Powers have also changed in areas, for instance Coast Guards Police Force now has jurisdiction farther inland. 


Everyone has a defintion of what a SWORN LEO is, but in my mind, training and experience tells me that a Sworn LEO is one who has arrests powers in a jurisdiction and carries creditials and a badge are SWORN.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

Not all LE agencies use badges, the 3 that come to mind right off  hand are New Jersey State Police, Pennsylvania State Police, and the ones I'm most familiar with, Missouri Highway Patrol, the LE officers I have the most contact with.  I havemore contact with MO HP troopers than any other LEO's including those from my own agency.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

Robinsage says ...



I have been in LE for 35 years, Army Special Forces for 12 years and here are some thoughts for you to ponder:


"Sworn PEACE Officers" who serve the GENERAL PUBLIC are "sworn" in that they hold to a different standard and protocols than military and private enforcement forces. Generally, LE officers are categorized as "having arrest powers and authority," as opposed to Military, having restricted duties (limitations) reserved to MILITARY PERSONNEL only. Even many Federal Officers (such as Park Police, VA Police, GSA Officers) are restricted to enforcement of federally related infractions. Reciprocity is sometimes accorded these folks depending on the scenarios and locale (special circumstances) to detain, or arrest for obvious felonies-but in these cases, Citizen powers are usually more powerful than federal cops in these categories for misdemeanor arrest. There are federal "JURISDICTION" issues that usually define what the powers officers have (badged or not). In summary, these are the defining issues: 1. Jurisdiction (Federal crimes/Statutes, State, County and Local, Armed/Unarmed authority, Contractual Issues), 2. Standard Police Training (832pc Search, seizure, arrest- See #1 Notes), 3. Agreements (usually in foreign countries, such as Embassy duty, private security forces, U.S. Military, Dept. of State) and 4. Local (Public, Private, Military, Civilian).


Hope this helps define the issue a little better for you. Badges mean nothing other than a requirement to identify the authority of the office to which enforcement is applied or operated from (a legal requirement, such as a uniform)



BUMP


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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

BlueAFK9 says ...



Hi, I'm new to this forum and had a few questions on my mind. I've read comments in other forums that only sworn LEO's should be allowed to carry badges. In my military reserve unit, we have our badges stitched onto our uniforms and do not have badge numbers. I've also heard people comment that since we are only National Guard members, we are not law enforcement or real cops.  The Military has different titles for their military police and I think that confuses a lot of people. For instance, the Air Force refers to their LE as Security Forces or Security Police. ( some members just say cops in regards to the SF members). The Army has Military Police and Navy has Master at Arms.


I have found this perception that we are not LE by some members of the general public insulting. What are some thoughts on this?


Thank you and be safe out there.



I see many people are very concerned about "carrying a badge". . . . .why?  The department I work for gives us 2 badges. . . .1 for you shirt and 1 for you hat.  Under specific circumstances, we are allowed to obtain a "wallet badge", as the curved shirt badge can be a little bulky to be putting in your wallet (so can the wallet badge but that is a different story), but otherwise the only item we need carry is our identification card.  This specifically tells (whomever reads it) what our position is, in general what our powers are and (with a signature) who bestowed those powers on us.


Anybody can find a means of obtaining a "badge". . . .however, an identification card is a little harder to muster and in Michigan it is the only thing a police officer will trust.  If you find any issues on here (police link) causing you grief as to what your current role in life is. . . .read your own identification card to remind you of who you are and where your position is in life.  Don't take anyone elses' word on your value to society, read it for yourself.  As far as I'm concerned, there is a need and purpose for each position anyone on this site may have.  Nothing to look up to. . . .OR DOWN on.


I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them.

John Bernard Books, from "The Shootist"

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

The badge is a symbol of the authority granted by whichever governing body you derive authority from, it is nothing more than a symbol.  The credentials issued to you have more "authority" than the badge... so to speak.  Like my original FTO said, "Your badge is just a piece of metal that says 'Border Patrol Agent' on it, your creds give you 'street cred' ... so don't lose 'em!"


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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

Thank you for all the input everyone! Stay safe out there!

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

I always relate it to the fact that MP's and the like can be MP's at 17 with parents permission and as soon as your finish A.I.T. you are an MP.  No department local, state, or federal that I know of bestows a firearm to enforce laws until 21.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

viforensics says ...



I always relate it to the fact that MP's and the like can be MP's at 17 with parents permission and as soon as your finish A.I.T. you are an MP.  No department local, state, or federal that I know of bestows a firearm to enforce laws until 21.



+1


The military wants you right out of high school. LE wants you with some life experience, education, and clean record. War is a different world from keeping the peace on American streets.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

I agree with you, cant spell WIMP without MP *lol.  Just an old army joke, nothing but love for the armed forces. Its not the MP's in war that ask these questions, its the garrison ones that sometimes have the local agreements on extended jurisdictions that always ask these question I believe.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

We had a guy with us on our last deployment who had spent his career to that point being a garrison MP in Korea, he was stiff, always quoting regulations, and all around uninteresting in the beginning...by the end of a deployment of doing convoy security in Iraq, he was laid back, cracking jokes, and all around one of the guys.


I never never EVER want to get stuck doing garrison MP work...its the field or nothing.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

The role of the MP has changed significantly.  The current military doctrine is one of air land battle.  Field MP's as we used to refer to them as your conducting BCC, route recons and many other missions that probably should not be posted here and we were referred to as "Super Grunts"  Infantry with wheels and powers of arrest.


I was fortunate as an MP during the tail end of the cold war stationed in Europe I got broke in real quick with garrison duties.  Loved it!  Field work Loved it!  When I PCS'd to the states the unit i was in is was an RDF unit and we rotated garrison, Field and rapid deployment status.  Being a high profile post we got our share of police work in garrison.  We were necessary at that time to do our functions.  We had a lot of memorandums for jurisdictional boundries and when operating as CID/MPI we often ran operations with local and state agencies in the respective jurisdictions.  Call it the times but as a seventeen and eighteen year old MP, I got broke in quick.


With OPTEMPO for RDF military forces and now more reliance on Guard and Reserve to fill that need you are finding the same opportunities for young men in military law enforcement.  I agree a civilian LEO generally has more maturity under his / her belt than some MP's and in some cases especially as Guard and Reserve MP's.  Many of the Guard and Reserve MP's out there are the LEO's that patrol our very streets in between the military training committment.  The training and experience is there on both sides of the fence and courtesy of 9-11many young men / women are getting their tickets punched in combat.   Whether running ops at GITMO or a POW Detainee Camp or conducting Battlefiled Circulation Control.


We are all cops and well trained for the mission we are  performing.  With maturity comes experience and with experience comes maturity. The badge is the symbol and the credentals are the power, but the experience makes the badge that extends the power of the state.

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

viforensics says ...



I always relate it to the fact that MP's and the like can be MP's at 17 with parents permission and as soon as your finish A.I.T. you are an MP.  No department local, state, or federal that I know of bestows a firearm to enforce laws until 21.    



 You have to be the age of 19 by the time of any military law enforcement training is completed now. Granted 19 is only 2 years older than 17, but 21 is only 2 years older than 19. 21 is the average age required to be a LEO, with many departments allowing one to apply and begin training by the age of 20 - 20.5. 


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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

viforensics says ...



I agree with you, cant spell WIMP without MP *lol.  Just an old army joke, nothing but love for the armed forces. Its not the MP's in war that ask these questions, its the garrison ones that sometimes have the local agreements on extended jurisdictions that always ask these question I believe.



Very true. Field MP work...the closest thing I have seen to that sort of work in the civilian LE apparatus is the DoE's guys who do mobile security for the nation's nuclear weapons and such

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Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

I have been an MP in both RA & ARNG and had a badge with both. The reason that you are not issued badges now is just a budget thing. Sew on bagdes are less costly than the metal badges we were issued in my day.  You can however have your own duplicate MP badge made to MILSPEC because there are no badge numbers on MP badges. I have seen the dupes, they are great quality, made to MILSPEC, and most unit commanders will NOT give you a problem for having one made.


As far as Military Police being LEO's. There is a problem with Military Police of ANY branch being considered LEO's because Military personnel are FORBIDDEN from being used for civilian law enforcement actions (IE: Enforcing Laws of any given State). MP's are able to enforce state traffic laws only because the bases adopt the laws of the state for traffic regulations. But it is forbidden to use Military personnel in the enforcement of any state or local laws. As you may know, this has always caused a problem with civilians on military bases as the MP's had NO jurisdiction over them. They had to be turned over to some civilian authority (FED or STATE) for prosceution. With the adaptation of Civilian Police Officers working for Defense Department Agencies, this problem has been resovled. Even Federal Law Enforcement agencies with full powers of arrest ONLY HAVE JURISDICTION ON FEDERAL PROPERTY or FOR VIOLATIONS OF FEDERAL LAW.  Most Federal Officers can NOT enforce laws of the state. They may act as any civilian if their state has citizens arrest or if they are allowed by their prospective agencies to "interfere" off duty, they MUST turn the offender over to the local authorities unless the offender committed an act violating federal law giving that federal officer jurisdiction over the offense.


The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of Reconstruction, with the intention (in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807) of substantially limiting the powers of the federal government to use the military for law enforcement. The Act prohibits most members of the federal uniformed services (today the Marine Corps, Army, Navy, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service) from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) within the United States. The statute generally prohibits federal military personnel and units of the National Guard under federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The Coast Guard is exempt from the Act.


18 U.S.C. § 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

Also notable is the following provision within Title 10 of the United States Code (which concerns generally the organization and regulation of the armed forces and Department of Defense):


10 U.S.C. § 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.

This is why Military Police are NOT considered LEO's as defined by Federal and State law.

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Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

Most ** NOT ALL** MP's do not do law and order type of work they are field MP's. They do not work on the road respond to calls for service or do typical police duties. So I bet that NG or RES MP's are the same. MP's can not arrest people either they can detain and turn over to a commander...


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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

 I have read a few responses to the topic and would like to say that I was an mp from 06-11 I was at bragg we had joint jurisdiction with three counties and two large cities and not only did we as mp's enforce ucmj but also ncgs. To put it simply if you were military and suficient evedince supported that you commited a crime you would be charged with ucmj, however if you where civilian and suspected of committing a crime with suficient evidence supporting the violation you would be charged according to ncgs (north carolina general statue. The largest city we had joint jurisdiction with had a strict no chase policy and would in turn call us to persue the fleeing vehicle. Appon aprehention the suspect would be charged and taken to the pmo and placed in a cell. 


     Another point I would like to touch onis a statement I read a few times that mps dont have badge number which isnt true on any police report you do you put it in its your first initial of your last name with the last four of your social.

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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

meltonmalinois says ...



     Another point I would like to touch onis a statement I read a few times that mps dont have badge number which isnt true on any police report you do you put it in its your first initial of your last name with the last four of your social.



Would that be a Badge Number or a Officer ID Number?


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Rate This | Posted over 1 year ago

 

I was issued two seperate badges as an Military Policeman. The first one had a number and the second (changed styles) also had a number. We used that badge number on reports the same as any other policeman.


Now, let me explain the difference between Military Police and other police. THERE IS NONE!!


We all have a jurisdiction. Those military members assigned as Military Police working on a base have theirs like any city policeman, county deputy, etc etc.


Is the training different between that of "civilian cops" vs MP's? In some instances yes. Is the training a Border Agent gets different in many ways to a municipal or county policeman? In many ways yes it is, so are BP agents not cops?


Do "civilian cops" get more experience and exposure to law enforcement than MP's? Some places yes and others no.


The whole off-duty carry issue does not make an officer more or less of a cop. I know municipal agencies that do not allow their officers to carry their issue weapons off duty either. I got a CCW in the state I was stationed in and bought a Beretta identical to that of my M9 so IF I was involved in a shooting I would have my training record to fall back on.


Now, for the kicker! The ability to make an off-duty arrest. Seriously, if you are that concerned with having the "authority" of making an off-duty arrest you need a hobby. Carry a weapon to protect yourselt and lyour oved ones and ONLY ever get involved in an off-duty law enforcement incident if it is a matter of life and death.


For the guy that said MP's do not apprehend or prosecute civilians that commit crmes on base, you need about a 150 hour in-service guy.


And lets not forget the Assimilative Crimes Act (ACA) (18 U.S.C.A. § 13) We will assimilate the state statute and punishment in the absence of a federal law or regulation.


At the end of the day Military Police men and women take an oath just like any other LEO, they put on a badge and a gun like any other LEO and they go do LAW ENFORCEMENT. Where they do it and whom authorizes them to do it is different just like it is for the rest of us. Yes the age and maturity level is usually different and that is the biggest and in my opinion only significant difference between MP's and those in "civilian LE"