Law Enforcement Specialties >> Campus Law Enforcement >> Blowing Holes in the Walls

+3

Blowing Holes in the Walls

1,765 Views
26 Replies Flag as inappropriate
Xmas_kids_032_max50

10 posts

back to top

Posted almost 5 years ago

 

An argument here is about the rounds to be used in Active Shooter or similar situations. We have Colt M4s, and 12-gauge shotguns, but some of our officers (such as myself) prefer heavier/slower rounds, such as 7.62 NATO. I had to fight myself just to use my .357Sig XD. Our upper management doesn't want us to possible use a round that could over-penetrate any wall on campus.


5.56 is scary to them, but 7.62, or even .338 for my precision rifle? Almost out of the question.


Anybody else have thoughts about this, or have similar discussions gone on around you?

Me_kodiak_photo_max50

129 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

You could try some kind of a rifle that uses pistol cartridges and switch to subsonic rounds. Of course you would be limited to anytype that is not semiautomatic in that case because sub sonic rounds don't have the gas pressure or recoil to operate semi auto systems. A .45 long colt or similar in lever action might do. As far as a 12 gauge goes they do have safety shot thet is specially designed for not overpenetrating walls it is hollow steel balls instead of solid shot.

Me_kodiak_photo_max50

129 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

bmorgan says ...



I have been involved in two OIS (I was not the shooter in either.)  one with 5,56 and one with 12 guage slug.


 And I can tell you that the 5.56 with good ammo is the ultimate LE round.  Here's why.  Over penatration is a serious issue for us.  We are responcible for every round we fire.  (also why full auto has no place in LE.) 


The slowest largest round I can think of is the 1 oz 12 guage slug.   At The first OIS the bad guy was shot twice in the chest in rapid succecion with 1 oz 12 guage slugs from a distance of about 10 yards.  He laid his gu down, walked over to a wall, sat down, and talked to us for 10 minutes before he died.


In the second OIS the bad guy took one 5.56 55grain soft point to the chest at a distance of about 8 feet.  He was dead by the time the officer who fired the round took the 3 steps to get to him.



I can't argue with this one. I only have book research to go by myself., My 12 ga is loadedwit 00 buck, but I live in a brick house too.

Zombiehunter_max50

84 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

I carry a Keltec su 2000 9mm  Sub Rifle  chambered for Glock with 1 32 round mag and a 10  rd back up mag. Ammo type = win ranger 147gr SXT.  It's for that special moment when ever that may be. Cost effective and gets the job done but I'm on the range 3 times a month at a min.

Xmas_kids_032_max50

10 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

Thank you all for your input. It's greatly appreciated.

Zombiehunter_max50

84 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

Oh I forgot you can go to frangiblie 9mm ammo also with the sub.

Evil_max50

7070 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

Harmon605 says ...



An argument here is about the rounds to be used in Active Shooter or similar situations. We have Colt M4s, and 12-gauge shotguns, but some of our officers (such as myself) prefer heavier/slower rounds, such as 7.62 NATO. I had to fight myself just to use my .357Sig XD. Our upper management doesn't want us to possible use a round that could over-penetrate any wall on campus.


5.56 is scary to them, but 7.62, or even .338 for my precision rifle? Almost out of the question.


Anybody else have thoughts about this, or have similar discussions gone on around you?



Ammo selection is the key.  Your handgun rounds will likely pass through more walls and other obstacles than a 5.56/223 round.  Go big like 7.62 and you increase the possiblity of passing through more obstacles.  338 more so.


Anyone recommending a pistol caliber carbine.  I don't care how long your sight radius is, if you put a stock on it, how long the barrel is, it is still JUST a handgun and does not deliver the energy to the target like a 5.56.  In addition increase the barrel length increases velocity which will translate to passing through more obstacles more likely.


You have the rest of your life to solve the problem, how long your life lasts depends on how well you do it. -Clint Smith

Respect it

Me_kodiak_photo_max50

129 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

7.62 nato = good sniper round, am I wrong?


I have to agree with the frangible ammo for 9mm, If I carried one as a duty sidearm I'd probably use it in that too just to be safe. THey do make the same type of round in a 12 ga slug too.

Silver_warrior_max50

1484 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

When we went from the 9mm to the .40cal., the reason given us (from the head cook and bottle washers on the range) was that the 9mm was having some issues in overpenetration.  They were not talking about buildings but bodies.  As for penetrating walls and what have you, as a "professional" LEO, you HAVE to have an idea of your surroundings and what is behind your current target.  Doesn't matter what kind of ammunition you are using if bad guy runs into a crowd of people, turns and fires at you. . . .can you shoot back at that point?  Remember, you have just run a good distance, you have had an adrenalin dump and your fine motor skills are. . .well you just don't have those at this point.  If you miss bad guy in the crowd (because you chose to take the shot), who just paid the tuition for you learning curve?  Even if you had frangible rounds, someone just got a case of lead poisoning (or should I say aluminum poisoning). . . .could you live with that????


In the end, you are required to know your surroundings at all times when you are on duty so your decisions are well made when things go sideways.  Not only what is between you and bad guy but also behind bad guy in case you miss OR round "over penetrates" bad guy and continues on, which for a rifle round is highly likely unless it is of a smaller round (.223 round) that if it hits a bone, it more than likely will be "re-directed" to a new direction.  The smaller rifle round still has to dissipate the energy somehow but is more likely (due to it's light weight) to bounce around inside the body until the energy is gone. . . . .unless it finds a way out before the energy is gone.


I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them.

John Bernard Books, from "The Shootist"

Evil_max50

7070 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

Its more the weapon system than the round...(for the most part) that makes for precision work.  Yes they do make special 12 ga slug.  If memory serves its a compressed projectile its more for breaching that anything else.


There is a reason frangible ammo is not so widely used.  Its advantages are its disadvantages.


You have the rest of your life to solve the problem, how long your life lasts depends on how well you do it. -Clint Smith

Respect it

The_

133 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

Harmon,


For the LE field,  like Morgan, I am also a strong believer of the 5.56 round.  If you want some serious stopping power while reducing  SOME of the overpenatration, try a 5.56 with a Nosler Balistic Tip, or the Hornady V-Max.  Both have great stopping power while reducing the over penatration of a standard round.  Also Personal Defense TV did a segment on overpenatration of handgun rounds and rifle rounds.  They took three sheetrock walls, (sheetock-air-sheetrock, with a 2X4 frame),  If I remember right the 9,40, and the 45 all made it through all three walls.  The 5.56 with FMJ's went through all three but started to tumble after the first one.  The lead tip however, made it through one wall. through the first sheet of the second wall and stopped in the second sheet.  The .308 didn't even slow down when they tested it.  Give the balistic tips a try in some medium, something like an old car door, some make shift walls, what have you, do some comparison and base your decision on the findings.  If you can try to recreate some of the same types of medium you may encounter on campus.  The most important thing to remember is ANY round, wheither its handgun or rifle will have some overpenatration.  It may be a lot or it may be a little it all depends on where you place you rounds and what you hit.  Try shooting an old car door with a .22 some day, you'd be amazed at what one of those little buggers will do. 


Just my .02 cents, take it as you will. 


Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition.

In Loving Memory or Officer Nick Erfle EOW 9,18,2007

1979_max50

3272 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

We did not have rifles except for SWAT sniper, a .308 back when I was working. I think I would prefer th .223 round in a hollow point for that weapon. The 12 Ga. is a great weapon just for the fear factor but when used the ))buck and 1 oz slug will do the job. As for handguns, we carried .38 specials back then going from a 189 gr soft lead round nose, (which would bounce off windshields and even tires), to a 158 gr hollow point. Five OIS with those rounds and 4 died immediately with one or two rounds to the center body mass. Now I prefer my .45 ACP with the big heavy Federal Hydro-shock rounds. Hell of a punch that will take anyone down immediately but won't go through everything in sight.

Evil_max50

7070 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

Robo a rifle HP is not a HP in the same sense as a handgun HP.  It seems to be more for stabalizing the round in flight rather than expansion.  Soft points and ballistic tips typically expand, fragment etc better than FMJ and HP.


You have the rest of your life to solve the problem, how long your life lasts depends on how well you do it. -Clint Smith

Respect it

The_

133 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

Scurge says ...



Robo a rifle HP is not a HP in the same sense as a handgun HP.  It seems to be more for stabalizing the round in flight rather than expansion.  Soft points and ballistic tips typically expand, fragment etc better than FMJ and HP.



I think you hit the nail on the head there Scurge.....If you do a little research Serria actually uses a hollow point for their MATCHKING round.  A hollow point in a rifle is usually going to fast to expand reliably....unless your shooting a .44 mag and Its been a long time since I've seen a .44 mag used as a patrol carbine. 


Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition.

In Loving Memory or Officer Nick Erfle EOW 9,18,2007

-191 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

I did not witness he actual incident, but could see the aftermath.  An unintentional discharge of a .40 caliber duty pistol in the campus police station (forget bullet weight but was the heavier hydroshock round)  went through the wall of the PD and into a vacant lab, across the lab and through the 2nd lab wall and into a hallway, across the hall and buried in the far hall wall. the first 2 walls were 2 layers of plasterboard, i believe, the final wall was concrete block.  Frtunatley there was no one around in any of the areas and an officer telling a bizarre story of a malfunction of a HK safety.  duty ammo had plenty of penetation.

-91 posts

back to top
+1

Rated +1 | Posted over 4 years ago

 

The 5.56 doesn't overpenetrate like most people think. It was designed to dump it's energy on first contact and does a pretty good job of doing that, especially because it's light. Your 9mm SMGs will actually penetrate more due to the heavier projectile (2-3 times the weight). Will it go through drywall, etc....? Yes, but it's velocity is greatly reduced after passing through a barrier. It's a safe round for a campus.


A 7.62 is out of the question for an entry rifle round....

Marvin_martian_max50

3382 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

GTS197 says ...



The 5.56 doesn't overpenetrate like most people think. It was designed to dump it's energy on first contact and does a pretty good job of doing that, especially because it's light. Your 9mm SMGs will actually penetrate more due to the heavier projectile (2-3 times the weight). Will it go through drywall, etc....? Yes, but it's velocity is greatly reduced after passing through a barrier. It's a safe round for a campus.


A 7.62 is out of the question for an entry rifle round....



Absolutely correct.  The 5.56 is an excellent urban round.


Go out today and preach the gospel, and if you must, use words. St. Francis of Assisi

Jack_bauer_max50

455 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

I use my own m4, and just bought some 50 grain  jacketed hallow points in .223 (30 bucks for 40 rounds) to replace some of my old JHP's. I also have JHP for my AK as well....I need to research this subject. Very interesting. I have heard of ammo out there for rifles that can penetrate but doesn't go very far after that, i.e. human body, wall, etc. I don't know what it's called but apparently we have it in some of our weapons.


I guess just do the research, bring the states, figures, history, etc to your bosses, and if they still say know, you have learned something to pass on to others.


 


I'd love to see what you found out.

Xmas_kids_032_max50

10 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

Again, thank you all for you're input. Please, keep it coming.


 

Photo__1__max50

151 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

Harmon605 says ...



An argument here is about the rounds to be used in Active Shooter or similar situations. We have Colt M4s, and 12-gauge shotguns, but some of our officers (such as myself) prefer heavier/slower rounds, such as 7.62 NATO. I had to fight myself just to use my .357Sig XD. Our upper management doesn't want us to possible use a round that could over-penetrate any wall on campus.


5.56 is scary to them, but 7.62, or even .338 for my precision rifle? Almost out of the question.


Anybody else have thoughts about this, or have similar discussions gone on around you?



I didn't read the other posts so I apoligize if this is a repeat.  In a University, its great to utilize long guns.  Active shooters are always a possibility no matter how boring your job may seem.  I think using 7.62 or 12g slug is excessive.  There is too much penetrating power with those rounds.  The 5.56 is a fast and very accurate round.  Using 12g slug inside a building is asking for trouble and besides 00 buck or 000 buck is more effective within a certain range, 15 yards and up it acts almost as a single projectile.  Slug isn't necessary unless your shooter is 50 yards away.  Active shooter situations are up close and personal.  If a 12g slug or 7.62 penetrates a wall, door or ceiling you could potentially injure or kill an innocent person.  The size of the round should be irrelevant.  SHOT PLACEMENT is what matters.

100_0214_max600_max50

59 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

How is your department doing now?  Have you chosen a rifle round?  Our department uses the Federal TRU 55grn .223 round.  It also the round chosen by the PA State Police for the Troopers.  I am not sure what their SERT guys use.

The_cops_max50

137 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

Scurge is right, its all in the bullets.   The frangible rifle rounds are about the best for this even if you go big bullet (7.62).      

Evil_max50

7070 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

Frangible apparently significantly reduces the life of your barrel. 


You have the rest of your life to solve the problem, how long your life lasts depends on how well you do it. -Clint Smith

Respect it

The_cops_max50

137 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

Both Federal and Hornady make rifle rounds in their LE products that address the over penetration.  I did not mean the junk indoor range rounds.    

-7 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

bmorgan says ...



We tested frangible rounds at my fed job.  Federals I think.  They didn't even pass day one of the test.  Some of them would come apart in the barrel, then it would just fill the air with metal dust.  The targets at close range would catch a few small pieces but nothing lethal.  The guns would become dirty and we would have stopages after only a few rounds.



 


Do you know if there was any follow up with Federal as to why that was happening, or is that a common occurrence with any frangible round?

Evil_max50

7070 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 4 years ago

 

MN108 says ...



bmorgan says ...



We tested frangible rounds at my fed job.  Federals I think.  They didn't even pass day one of the test.  Some of them would come apart in the barrel, then it would just fill the air with metal dust.  The targets at close range would catch a few small pieces but nothing lethal.  The guns would become dirty and we would have stopages after only a few rounds.



 


Do you know if there was any follow up with Federal as to why that was happening, or is that a common occurrence with any frangible round?



I dont think its all frangible.  I have shot a lot of thru a Glock never any issues.  I believe those were Speer (Federal and Speer and both owned by ATK now).  I have heard of an agency in CA that was using them in their AR's and decided they were not what they were cracked up to be.  Ballistic Tips are better any way


You have the rest of your life to solve the problem, how long your life lasts depends on how well you do it. -Clint Smith

Respect it