What do you guys think is an acceptable amount of damage to a suspect by your K9. We got a hold of a guy a few weeks back and did some long lasting damage. I was wondering what you guys thought?

Only what is necessary to control the situation.  I dont ever believe a K9 and handler will intentionally cause or inflict unnecessary damages.  Fight and you get bit, keep fighting and you get bit. 

The study provided in the link indicates there are more bites by those that use the bark and hold (bh) than those that use the find and bite (fb). I can think of a number of reasons why I'm opposed to the b/h. Among those are officer safety. Secondly, it's the handler that makes the decision as to whether or not a subject gets bitten, not the dog. 

link;  http://k9.fgcu.edu/articles/mesloh1.pdf

DFrost says ...

The study provided in the link indicates there are more bites by those that use the bark and hold (bh) than those that use the find and bite (fb). I can think of a number of reasons why I'm opposed to the b/h. Among those are officer safety. Secondly, it's the handler that makes the decision as to whether or not a subject gets bitten, not the dog. 

 

link;  http://k9.fgcu.edu/articles/mesloh1.pdf

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!

archi says ...

 

K9Gunner says ...

DFrost says ...

The study provided in the link indicates there are more bites by those that use the bark and hold (bh) than those that use the find and bite (fb). I can think of a number of reasons why I'm opposed to the b/h. Among those are officer safety. Secondly, it's the handler that makes the decision as to whether or not a subject gets bitten, not the dog. 

 

link;  http://k9.fgcu.edu/articles/mesloh1.pdf

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!

DForst,

I’m not sure of your experience and how long you have been a handler.

The Industry standard, nation wide, and it has been scientifically proven, the BH have a lower bite ratio than the FB.  Terry Flick, the leading expert in K-9 case law and a national expert in k-9s use of force and teaches this at all of his canine legal update classes.  Those departments, which use and teach the FB is moving away from this locating technique, do to the high percentages of unintentional bites.  Basically put; the canine cheats, they will bump the subject to cause the movement they need to allow the bite.

Lastly, neither the handler nor the dog decides the suspect gets bit.  The suspects’ actions are what causes the dog to be released.  The suspect only is the one who determines if or they get bit, always!

 

 

To answer your questions, I've been a handler, trainer and now  program manager for the better part of 44 years.  If you read the study conducted, which I've provided the link, you'll find your statements are not accurate. Who determines industry standard. None of the certification organizations require b/h. The majority of departments (do your own survey) are f/b, not b/h. Explain to me why there were be more "unintentiional bites" with f/b than with b/h. Your comments: "Basically put; the canine cheats, they will bump the subject to cause the movement they need to allow the bite." are exactly what happens with bark and hold dogs, not find and bite. If it was a find and bite dog, he would immediately engage. Perhaps you are confused on the terms and associated actions. When a dog engages because he was directed too, it's not an unintentional bite. The dog doesn't have the oppurtunity to cheat as you put it.

Lastly your comment: "Lastly, neither the handler nor the dog decides the suspect gets bit.  The suspects’ actions are what causes the dog to be released.  The suspect only is the one who determines if or they get bit, always!"

 While it's true the suspects actions determine what happens, it is still the officer that decides what level of force to use. As you say ..... always. If that weren't true it would be called force response rather than a force continuum.

I'd like to ask you a couple of questions. How long have you been a K9 handler/trainer etc. Do you currently handle a patrol dog. Is it trained f/b or b/h. How many dogs does  your department have. Are they all trained f/b or b/h. How many dogs have your personally observed, not heard about, not read about, but personally observed, trained in b/h during actual canine deployments.