Law Enforcement Specialties >> Special Units (K9, SWAT, etc.) >> Whats the acceptable amount of damge done by K9

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Whats the acceptable amount of damge done by K9

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Posted about 5 years ago

 

What do you guys think is an acceptable amount of damage to a suspect by your K9. We got a hold of a guy a few weeks back and did some long lasting damage. I was wondering what you guys thought?

Th_germanshepard_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

there is a very simple answer to that question; "No more than necessary". You can't quantify the amount of damage a dog may do to a subject, any more than you can quantify what a taser will do to a particular person. The person that, once apprehended by the dog, surrenders,  should certainly have less damage done than the person that fights the dog. I would suggest you visit Terry Flecks website at www.k9fleck.org  and review section relative the canine and use of force


Beyond fatigue lies compensatory hypertrophy

Native_clip_art_4_049_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Only what is necessary to control the situation.  I dont ever believe a K9 and handler will intentionally cause or inflict unnecessary damages.  Fight and you get bit, keep fighting and you get bit. 

Braxton_eyes-web_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

My Mal is trained to do a bark and hold once the bite is complete and the person has stopped fighting...


Now if you keep fighting - He keeps biting.


I'm kind of surprised at the fact that most dogs I've seen on the road don't do a bark and hold... But as my Master Trainer explained it the manuever was frowned upon b.c it was ruled that no reasonable person could stay calm and not move while the dog was performing the bark and hold, and therefore they were being bitten again.

Th_germanshepard_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

The study provided in the link indicates there are more bites by those that use the bark and hold (bh) than those that use the find and bite (fb). I can think of a number of reasons why I'm opposed to the b/h. Among those are officer safety. Secondly, it's the handler that makes the decision as to whether or not a subject gets bitten, not the dog. 


 


link;  http://k9.fgcu.edu/articles/mesloh1.pdf


Beyond fatigue lies compensatory hypertrophy

Th_avatar_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

 A bite is the last resort. Any number of variables determines how much damage is done. Included are...K9s intensity and experience and genetics. Suspects' actions upon engagement. Clothing worn (determined by location and time of year normally).  Enviromental stimulous at time of apprehension. etc etc etc.   It would be impossible to make hard fast rules on K9 damage during a physical apprehension.  The only true way to do this is to not have biting dogs at all.  Might as well have an unloaded gun.

Normal_mvc-012sa_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

DFrost says ...



The study provided in the link indicates there are more bites by those that use the bark and hold (bh) than those that use the find and bite (fb). I can think of a number of reasons why I'm opposed to the b/h. Among those are officer safety. Secondly, it's the handler that makes the decision as to whether or not a subject gets bitten, not the dog. 


 


link;  http://k9.fgcu.edu/articles/mesloh1.pdf



AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!


Jeff Turner
K9 Solutions Center
SBPD Increased Criminal Enforcement Unit - K9
American Working Dog Council - President

Desk_top_pics-37_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

K9Gunner says ...



DFrost says ...



The study provided in the link indicates there are more bites by those that use the bark and hold (bh) than those that use the find and bite (fb). I can think of a number of reasons why I'm opposed to the b/h. Among those are officer safety. Secondly, it's the handler that makes the decision as to whether or not a subject gets bitten, not the dog. 


 


link;  http://k9.fgcu.edu/articles/mesloh1.pdf



AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!



DForst,



I’m not sure of your experience and how long you have been a handler.

The Industry standard, nation wide, and it has been scientifically proven, the BH have a lower bite ratio than the FB.  Terry Flick, the leading expert in K-9 case law and a national expert in k-9s use of force and teaches this at all of his canine legal update classes.  Those departments, which use and teach the FB is moving away from this locating technique, do to the high percentages of unintentional bites.  Basically put; the canine cheats, they will bump the subject to cause the movement they need to allow the bite.


Lastly, neither the handler nor the dog decides the suspect gets bit.  The suspects’ actions are what causes the dog to be released.  The suspect only is the one who determines if or they get bit, always!


 


Http://www.HarleyTalk.us
"When the wolf attacks, he will find not all who runs with the flock are sheep."

Th_germanshepard_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

archi says ...



 


K9Gunner says ...



DFrost says ...



The study provided in the link indicates there are more bites by those that use the bark and hold (bh) than those that use the find and bite (fb). I can think of a number of reasons why I'm opposed to the b/h. Among those are officer safety. Secondly, it's the handler that makes the decision as to whether or not a subject gets bitten, not the dog. 


 


link;  http://k9.fgcu.edu/articles/mesloh1.pdf



AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!



DForst,



I’m not sure of your experience and how long you have been a handler.

The Industry standard, nation wide, and it has been scientifically proven, the BH have a lower bite ratio than the FB.  Terry Flick, the leading expert in K-9 case law and a national expert in k-9s use of force and teaches this at all of his canine legal update classes.  Those departments, which use and teach the FB is moving away from this locating technique, do to the high percentages of unintentional bites.  Basically put; the canine cheats, they will bump the subject to cause the movement they need to allow the bite.


Lastly, neither the handler nor the dog decides the suspect gets bit.  The suspects’ actions are what causes the dog to be released.  The suspect only is the one who determines if or they get bit, always!


 


 


To answer your questions, I've been a handler, trainer and now  program manager for the better part of 44 years.  If you read the study conducted, which I've provided the link, you'll find your statements are not accurate. Who determines industry standard. None of the certification organizations require b/h. The majority of departments (do your own survey) are f/b, not b/h. Explain to me why there were be more "unintentiional bites" with f/b than with b/h. Your comments: "Basically put; the canine cheats, they will bump the subject to cause the movement they need to allow the bite." are exactly what happens with bark and hold dogs, not find and bite. If it was a find and bite dog, he would immediately engage. Perhaps you are confused on the terms and associated actions. When a dog engages because he was directed too, it's not an unintentional bite. The dog doesn't have the oppurtunity to cheat as you put it.


Lastly your comment: "Lastly, neither the handler nor the dog decides the suspect gets bit.  The suspects’ actions are what causes the dog to be released.  The suspect only is the one who determines if or they get bit, always!"


 While it's true the suspects actions determine what happens, it is still the officer that decides what level of force to use. As you say ..... always. If that weren't true it would be called force response rather than a force continuum.


I'd like to ask you a couple of questions. How long have you been a K9 handler/trainer etc. Do you currently handle a patrol dog. Is it trained f/b or b/h. How many dogs does  your department have. Are they all trained f/b or b/h. How many dogs have your personally observed, not heard about, not read about, but personally observed, trained in b/h during actual canine deployments.


 


 



Beyond fatigue lies compensatory hypertrophy

Loneliness_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

Archi,


I've learned it's usually not in ur best intrest to try and show up DFrost, when it comes to K9, he know's what he's talking about.


Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Theodore Geisel (Dr. Seuss)