Law Enforcement Specialties >> Special Units (K9, SWAT, etc.) >> Entry Stack Weapons: Carbine, SMG, or Shotgun?

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Entry Stack Weapons: Carbine, SMG, or Shotgun?

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Posted over 5 years ago

 

Ok gents....enough of the fluffy talk. Lets get down to some real cop talk.


There is an active shooter incident underway, this time at a hospital.....incident command and a perimeter has been established.  The on scene commander has requested a SWAT team...they are on their way....however, he has given you and 10 other officers to go ahead to go in and stop the shooter (shooters?)......


 


In this situation, would you prefer your patrol "rifle" to be an entry styled carbine? SMG (MP5/UMP)? Or a police shotgun?

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And why.....


And I know we have some cops here who have been though active shooter/incident command training as well as SWAT/SRT certified....

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Benelli M-1 semi-auto ,12 ga. shotgun (with flahlight and laser attachment) because almost all of your actual combat confrontation in the scenario that you present will occur within a 7 meter radius in a close-up and personal environment.  The shotgun is more of a point and shoot weapon with a good shot spread in those conditions.  Having said that, I would like my backup to have an MP-5 up and ready to go also.  I have always been a proponent of the .12 ga. shotgun in such close quarter situations and have been quite successful in building clearing training scenarios with that weapon.


edited: 6-24-09


Gotta agree with PSD_Team_Leader about having the handgun along with the shotgun.  Mine would be the Sig Sauer P226 .45 auto. (8+1 capacity, Trijicon 3 dot night sights)  Both the shotgun and the Sig are equipped with laser site systems for quick target aquisition and shooting. I would stagger the shells in the shotgun, 00 Buck (either knocks 'em down or gets their attention real quick) followed by a slug, 00 buck, slug combination.


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Retleo (MODERATOR #8)
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I got into LE after the carbine version of the AR15 by and large replaced the SMG, have never used the SMG, not familiar with how it handles.  Would love to give it a spin.  Im of the mind that the 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP (SMG rounds) are more than adequate for the distances of an ASI.


And I tend to agree, I actually would prefer the shotgun and a sidearm for that situation...but I keep both the shotgun and the AR in my vehicle.

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Well boyz, I will be brief. Gotta head out to the academy for night PT.


Doggonit, ... It's hard to be weapon specific. An active shooter is an active shooter. It's happening now. SWAT will get there eventually BUT I bet ya got at LEAST one SWAT officer working somewhere with his team weapon within reach.


When I was on SWAT, my weapon was the Benelli M1 Super 90. Nifty. Slugs. No more Double-Ot Buck. Also had an MP5 handy but I am seeing less and less of them.


BUT more and more agencies have an M4 (or equivalent) cruisin' around somewhere. Ours were legit Colt M4's with soft points. To have one, you have to be an expert with one.


I would deploy two diamonds of 5 officers (the fifth one is in the middle and leads). Long guns up front. About a one minute briefing prior. Remember, you're telling me this is going down now. We already know the drill. Stay with your AOR and keep moving. Listen to the lead guy in the middle of the diamond.


Ok, that said, I would also inject this. I thought about it when I was a supe with a diamond group. I gave any officer the option to take an exterior perimeter position if they 'could not' go in. No time to second guess the reason. That's for later. If someone stepped away, backfill with a remaining officer. You said I have ten. That's WAY more than I would anticipate on an active shooter. If you could get 4 officers there in quickly, I would go in.


Dang, I type slow. Any typos are for free and some things were not explained out. But that's my take in a nutshell.


Be back later.


 


 


 


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I have to agree. Super 90 M1 with slugs for short and long range shots, barricaded or subject wearing armor on each team if split. MP5 excellent for short and moderate range accuracy, hostage situation, seek and destroy! If avail throw in an AR15 in the group to attack any other barrier or armor. Longest shot down a hallway maybe 50 yards?

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Boscoe says ...



I have to agree. Super 90 M1 with slugs for short and long range shots,  barricaded or subject wearing armor on each team if split. MP5 excellent for short and moderate range accuracy, hostage situation, seek and destroy! If avail throw in an AR15 in the group to attack any other barrier or armor. Longest shot down a hallway maybe 50 yards?


+++++++++++++++++

Holy smokes ! Yeah, I would like to see THAT house. You know, the one with a '50 yd' hallway ???  


I guess my subtle point is you can't choose what your weapon will be on an active shooter team ... maybe. You might only have the weaponry available at the time OR what is issued at your agency. Would love to have all the weapons ON SCENE as described by PSD_TEAM_LEADER but, alas, you get what you got.


I'd also like to have Colonel Cooper, Eugene Stoner and Tom Knapp in my diamond but that isn't going to happen either.


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Also, it just occurred to me.


If you have an active shooter, everyone and their brother from an allied or neighboring agency is going to converge.


Are you gonna get them involved?


How about communications? Same or differing radio channels? How about different or conflicting training techniques with mixing and matching a 'going in' team?


Short answer: Probably no, unless all the above issues have been resolved in some prior training session.


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first one throught the door has got to be a shotgun.  remington 12 guage.  close quarters shooting shooting and will do the job.  after that it would be as many patrol rifles as possible.  AR-15's is what our patrol units carry.


 


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TheSarge says ...



Also, it just occurred to me.


If you have an active shooter, everyone and their brother from an allied or neighboring agency is going to converge.


Are you gonna get them involved?


How about communications? Same or differing radio channels? How about different or conflicting training techniques with mixing and matching a 'going in' team?


Short answer: Probably no, unless all the above issues have been resolved in some prior training session.



If we are following the incident command guidelines regarding active shooter scenarios, the first officer on scene has tactical command and control, and then so does his agency. As irritating as it sounds, because certainly I would want to go in as soon as I got on scene, but TECHNICALLY, we would all have to follow the incident command structure.....which I will definately not go into on here because this not truly being a secure LE only site. A fellow Soldier, actually my First Sergeant in my Guard unit (he himself a deputy sheriff with a Washington state SO) had this very conversation not too long ago as he was involved in an ASI in washington regarding a mall.  We wrote up several write ups on paper of the incident using the incident command model...and then burned the paper so even other non LE Soldiers could get a hold of the info.


In any event, definately every cop in the area from a myriad of agencies are going to show up.  Thats why its so important that EVERY cop is ASI trained.  That should be REQUIRED by every state certifying board as mandatory continuing education credits.


You should be able to take 5 officers from 5 different agencies and they should be able to stack and execute movement to contact and then clear remaining rooms.

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hbg522 says ...



first one throught the door has got to be a shotgun.  remington 12 guage.  close quarters shooting shooting and will do the job.  after that it would be as many patrol rifles as possible.  AR-15's is what our patrol units carry.


 



I keep both an AR and a shotgun in my cruiser...but I am actually starting to think that the AR, and all the tacticool fixtures, can be a bit dog and pony showish. I do think that the shotgun is a VERY underrated weapon for LE. It has fallen slightly out of favor in LE per the patrol rifle.  Now dont get me wrong, I keep a patrol rifle too...never know when it may be the right took for the job...but I dont think the shotgun should be discarded in LE by any means.

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TheSarge says ...



<snip>



Doggonit, ... It's hard to be weapon specific. An active shooter is an active shooter. It's happening now. SWAT will get there eventually BUT I bet ya got at LEAST one SWAT officer working somewhere with his team weapon within reach.


<snip>



 YES, YES, YES !!!!!!


M4 it is...



 


 


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yeah all of our mp5s were taken and we have M4s now plus glock 18s for sidearms


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Sarge007 says ...



yeah all of our mp5s were taken and we have M4s now plus glock 18s for sidearms



And I dont think that is a bad thing. In all actuality, Im not a big fan of fully automatic weapons in LE. Thats more a military thing or otherwise HIGHLY trained LE-CT (FBI-HRT) type personnel or high livel LE-PSD personnel (US SS, DSS).  We have to be accountable for every last round....

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This was to a hospital not a house corret?  I guess we have big hospitals here. Along with Ball rooms at hotels with corridors behind the scenes up too 100 yards in length. Advance surveys of these types of facilities help train and set up the assualt you will need. Hopefully you have done your advance work or at least as much as possible.

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SRT/SWAT units would do that, but how many patrol divisions from municipal and county agencies would? The only patrol divisions I see mandating training per layouts of "soft target" structures are campus police officers regarding the major buildings on their campuses.  The average city/county patrol division isnt going to pick a random church, hospital, school, mall and practics ASI drills in each.


That would be a damn good idea though.


The important thing to remember, the first responders to ASI's are not full battle rattle SRT units, but patrol officers.

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Does your outfit field the MP5 with the fixed full shoulder stock?

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Ive never fired the MP5, either in 9mm or in .40S&W.  Without a doubt, the .40S&W model was a play to reinvigorate the LE crowd in its use since that has become the standard LE round.


The AR in my opinion is a better choice simply because it can be suited to fit a variety of roles.  Clearly its the standard for entry weapons, and anyone in LE should be able to see its applications in intermediate distances for force on force applications...being up to 100m engagements.  Ive not missed a target once this year, at the 4 Army ranges Ive been to, at 300m with my M4.  If I can nail a target center mass at 300m with an M4 (I am not issued the longer rifle version, the M-16, I have the carbine M-4), it also brings up the idea of scoped applications for urban marksman usage in LE.


the AR is truly a multi-roled weapon for those with the imagination and foresight to apply it.

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Sarge007 says ...



yeah all of our mp5s were taken and we have M4s now plus glock 18s for sidearms


++++++++++++++

Hold up there !! Glock 18's ? YOU'VE GOT GLOCK 18'S  ??? Holy smokes, you have the holy grail of Glocks. What and where the heck did you get those? I've shot one and want one.


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What sort of training have you all done concerning the G18? What scenarios have you all trained in with them?

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I have used the Glock 18 ONLY for test purposes on the range.


As a fun thing, we gathered cadets around us and talked about trigger reset. We then demonstrated it with a standard Glock. Then we had the class stand back a bit and said this, "Now when you get good doing trigger reset, then you can do this." Quietly and out of view the standard Glock was replaced with a Glock 18. At the pull of the trigger many rounds went downrange in a fraction of a moment.


Needless to say jaws dropped and eyes got big.


"Whoa ! That was GOOD!"


If they only knew....


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our new Sheriff ordered glock 18s for all the swat guys about a year in a half ago, it took some time but we have 18 of them now. Only the entry team guys were issued them, the snipers still have there 17s. They are alot of fun to shoot but you really got to lean into your stance when you put them on auto. However, the Sheriff said while on the road if you use the full auto there had better me a end of the world reason to have to use it!!!!


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Yeah, I can see where he is coming from.....fully automatic....that is a dangerous game to be playing in an LE setting

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TheSarge says ...



I have used the Glock 18 ONLY for test purposes on the range.


As a fun thing, we gathered cadets around us and talked about trigger reset. We then demonstrated it with a standard Glock. Then we had the class stand back a bit and said this, "Now when you get good doing trigger reset, then you can do this." Quietly and out of view the standard Glock was replaced with a Glock 18. At the pull of the trigger many rounds went downrange in a fraction of a moment.


Needless to say jaws dropped and eyes got big.


"Whoa ! That was GOOD!"


If they only knew....



Funny, the range guys at my academy did that.  Well something similar to it.  The G18 was loaded with a 17 rd mag with another firearms instructor standing by with a couple of the 33 rd mags.  The Sgt sent a few rounds down range in semi and flipped the selector and well you know...demo of mastering trigger control and reset.  In my class it was done at the end of a night shoot.


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I prefer the AR platform myself.  We're using semi only commandos, an AR w/ 11.5" barrel.  Short barrel slightly limited range but still within ranges I'm likely to encouter BG's.  Compact for room clearing.  Perhaps if we had 870 shortened to 14" barrels and shortened buttstocks I'd be inclined to use those but as it stands we have 590's.


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I have experienced a few failures with the Mossberg in both 500 and 590.  I can't bring myself to bet my life on them.  Being a lefty long gun shooter I like where the safety and action release is on the Mossbergs.  I countered that by having my 870 safety converted to a left hand safety.


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My issues were with safeties and loading levers.  I haven't much of an opportunity to work w/ many auto loading SG's been debating on gettting an 1187.


You have the rest of your life to solve the problem, how long your life lasts depends on how well you do it. -Clint Smith

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Morg, 100% agreement. While I have no experience with the MP5, the idea of fully automatic weapons for day to day LE use is out of line in my opinion. Now there are scenarios I can come up with for units such as FBI-HRT or an LE SWAT in a counterterrorism setting where I can see it being needed...but not for the patrol officer, or even the "average" SRT unit.

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by the way, where did or who did you all take your active shooter incident training through? Interestingly enough, Ive been through basic SWAT, but not specific ASI training.

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I missed all the fun!


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