Law Enforcement Specialties >> Military Law Enforcement >> Do you consider and view Military Police to be and hold the same standards as civilian police?

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Do you consider and view Military Police to be and hold the same standards as civilian police?

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Shi_max50

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Posted about 5 years ago

 

Well, I was an MP for eight years in the Marine Corps and now I am a civilian police officer for the Marine Corps. So, now that I have been on both sides of the fence, how do you view Military Police as far as considering them police officers? I was told by a Metro PD Captain from San Diego, that MP's are not real law enforcement, because they are not sworn (they dont get credentials) law enforcement and that they dont deal with REAL crime. Yes I admit, the crime rate is no where near what it is like in CA or any where else, but they do get those rough calls from time to time. Just look at Camp Lejeune, it is crime city central with stabbings, murders, rapes, etc. In my view, they go through MP school (just like a police academy), they have to get a secret back ground security clearance, they drive patrol cars, carry fire arms, respond to domestics, robberies, assaults, etc. So, why is that most civilian LEO's dont look at MPs as LEO's? I mean even now that I have been through a Police Academy and work as a civilian police officer on a Marine Corps base, I still get told that I am not a REAL LEO, because we dont get to carry credentials. (However, the Govt. is trying to change that). I would like to see what you think on this issue.


EZE

Newpatch_sq90_max50

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Rated +2 | Posted about 5 years ago

 

I consider military police to be police officers, and yes, they should be held to the same standards.


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Rated +1 | Posted about 5 years ago

 

I was an MP for 71/2 years before the Border Patrol and they should be considered equals. I handled every call that so-called regular cops do and I was an accident reconstructionist and worked undercover narcotics. The military is a good place to learn the job and you learn if the career field is for you or not.

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Rated +1 | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Hey I consider them LEO's just specialized ones. One because of the Military portion attached to it any others normally view as Oh they are soldiers not police. CID agents are highly valued and considered first before any other civilian for federal LEO positions. I think part of the problem is it might be a little hint of jelousy(forgive spelling if not right) for in military community we have access to tons of training and schools that normal LEO's have to pay for. It would be nice to get credentials for that since I plan to do that for National Guard once I leave active duty. Another part of problem some LEo's might have with it is that your JOB description kinda will turn a few heads for when I looked up the MOS this is the description that it gave. " Military Police are a specialty combat arms job that involves applying local, federal, and international laws for combat actions and war time areas. In addition to this in garrison they have to uphold state, federal and military law as applicable on federal reserves used by the armed forces and when in need can be called upon to assit local athority's in investigations, serving federal and other warrants, and any other application of military and other laws. Additional duties can include prison guard, narcotics team, military rapid response team(SWAT), criminal investigations, traffic enforcement, K9 teams for variety of purposes, riot control and the list goes on and on LOL." I think they kinda get the feeling you are doing what they are suppose to be doing LOL. Oh and MP's are sworn in just with the big oath not regular LEO swear in. LOL I also think they kinda get little antsy since military likes to keep everything as much as possible in house and do not tell regular LEO's everything that is going on. The movie "The Generals Daughter" comes to mind when he skunked the LEO's and he was a CID agent.

Shi_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Hey, thanks to all for the replys back. I appreciate it. This has been a question weighing on me for some time. I just never could understand what the difference was between local LEO's and MP's. In my eyes we are all the same, its just that local LEOS's get a little better way of life being able to drive home their own cars and carry their weapons home and any where they desire. CID and K-9 MP's get credentials, but patrol MP's dont. I was an Accident Investigator and I investigated accidents within 50 miles of the base involving military and I still didnt get creds. It would be nice if they would change that.


EZE

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Rated -1 | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Hey PIB one more for you you would never lose your job as MP because of budget cuts where regular LEO has to worry about that.

Shi_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Yes, you have a point there. That is why I am glad that I am in the government still. I know I will get my pay check every two weeks. LOL!


EZE

Patrolcar_pic_max50

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Rated +1 | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Worldviewer says ...



Hey PIB one more for you you would never lose your job as MP because of budget cuts where regular LEO has to worry about that.



 


That's not totally true. During the Clinton era, there were A LOT of military cut backs, and LOTS of soldiers lost their jobs, or had to re-class into new fields. It may not have been MP specific, but there have been cut backs throughout history. Because of the restructuring in the last few years, to Brigade Combat Teams, the Brigade I used to be a part of lost most of their infantry positions, which were converted to other support fields. Just because it's a Gov't/Military job doesn't always mean it's secure. A lot of army posts are now patrolled  by civilian contractors now as well due to the combat role of the MP's.


"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. "

Lakewood_pd_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

I was an MP for five years active duty, and where I was we were not real cops. I respect guys on here that say MP's are LEO's and all that. But in this day and age where the majority of the work is in the field and less and less garrison work I feel that an MP is not a run of the mill police officer. Now this being said, I enjoyed my time, and was exposed to patrol duties at two large installations, and my service time helped me immensely in getting hired as a municipal police officer. I know some of you are gonna disagree with me and that is fine. This is my two cents so to speak.

Shi_max50

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Rated +2 | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Well, until the last few weeks, I have never been on the discussion rooms and commented on topics, as for I am still getting used to the different areas on this site. However, if it has been a topic of discussion, I dont mean to beat a dead horse with the same question. However, I do disagree with you. I mean every one has their opinions and I am glad for all of  the feed back, positive and negative. What I  dont understand is for those that dont think MP's are LEO's, tell me what is so different from MP's and LEO's. From what I see, they do the exact same job with the exact same tools. Its the exact same law, though its called UCMJ in military terms. If MP's are not LEO's, tell me what it is that LEO's do that MP's dont. Like I said, just trying to get feed back on this and trying to understand.


EZE

Shi_max50

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Rated +1 | Posted about 5 years ago

 

I cant speak for other branches of service, but I know when I was in the Marine Corps, if you were garrison then that is all you did. No field work at all. The only time I did the field side of MP was when I went to Iraq. Maybe other branches do it differently.


EZE

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Rated +3 | Posted about 5 years ago

 

This horse has been beaten ad nauseum. That being said, while I have great respect for PSD, I disagree with him to a certain degree on this particular subject. Also, before i launch into this, PSD's points are completely valid and NO ONE could ever accuse him of not doing his homework. This guy knows what the hell he's talking about so this is directed to the uninformed civilian officer who's never served a day in the military and speaks from a position of ignorance.


I also have seen MPs from both sides. I will agree that the overall standards for becoming an MP are not as stringent as those for a civilian officer. I will also grant that the law enforcement part of an MP's training leaves something to be desired. However when functioning in their LE capacity, MPs are required and expected to perform--for the most part--the exact same duties as any other LEO.... They enforce traffic laws/regs including criminal violations by military AND civilians within their jurisdictions, they make criminal arrests (dont give me the arrest vs apprehension argument... they both mean the same thing in court), they conduct and follow through on crimnal investigations such as domestic violence, child abuse, sex cases...you name it. They prepare their reports for trial and testify in court. They process crime scenes and interview witnesses and suspects. They have the same evidence proceedures that we have. They do the same job folks!


Are their differences?....certainly there are. No, they cant carry off duty nor do they generally have police powers off duty and, unfortunately, they sometimes lack the specialized training of their civilian counterparts. I guess what I'm getting at is that an MP patrolman does pretty much the same things that I do and their LEO duties are just as dangerous and stressful as anyone else that wears a badge--more so at times! How would you like to have to salute the little weasel whom you have just cited?!


Are there differences? Sure as hell....but for the uninformed civilian LEO to make a blanket statement that MPs are not "real LEOs" is no less foolish than some pointy headed FBI suit saying that patrol officers arent real cops. 


I have always thought--even 100 years ago when I was a USMC MP--that the main problem MPs have is their bosses and the system in which they have to work. Quite often a provost marshal (the chief MP on a base) has no LEO experience himself...Hell, at Quantico our PM was a fighter pilot! The poor enlisted MPs are expected to do all the LEO stuff while, at the same time, kissing the asses of anyone wearing a chunk of brass on their shoulders. MP brass is often thrilled when an MP patrolman makes great DUI cases on jr NOCs and non-rates but are chastised when they "ruin the career" of some drunk master sgt or captain. These guys are expected by their higher-ups to be cops only when it's convenient to the brass but when the bad guy is someone senior they get reminded "You're supposed to be a Marine first."


The military justice process is, of course VERY different.... MPs primarily report the findings of their investigations (if the suspect is in the military) to the suspect's own command for disposition, formal charges, etc. If they take some drunk into custody the subj is genarally turned released in the custody on their unit's duty officer...as opposed to being taken to jail...booked, made to post bond, etc. Civilian suspects are also usually released ROR to a responsible party and given what amounts to a notice to appear at federal magistrates court (DD form 1805 if i remember correctly) and the charges are for violating a state statute (such as Va. statute 18.2-266 for DUI if memory serves  lol).


Bottom line is, in my opinion, that while someof the comparisons are "apples to oranges", overall these guys are enforcers of the law...period! Ive dealt with some damn fine MPs since I became a civilian officer and they were just as proffessional and street savy as any civ cop I've ever worked with. They just have a bunch of other duties IN ADDITION to their LEO duties.


So there!   lol...... my 2 or maybe 50 cents worth.


Semper Fi!!


Hutch

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Having delt with MP's as a Marine as well as Civilian LEO's they are a different animal, but yes in my eyes they are still LEO's we would hope (and correct me if I am wrong never been an MP just know some) they have less crimes to deal with especially serious ones since they are mainly patroling our men and women serving this country.  I my self hold those individuals to a hire standard than Jan Doe or John Doe down the street they are taught, trained and of course us Jarheads brain washed a bit to be hopefully upstanding Citizens not only to our Platoon, but to our civilian counterparts as well.  Here is a question to add to this!  Is an MP any different from a City Officer than the differences between Correction Officers, State Patrols, City Police, Sheriffs, Constables, SWAT Teams, Narcotics Teams....the list could go on....are from each other?  As in Military terms they are all part of the same MOS, but with different terms of duty all working for the same final outcome, To serve and protect the people of our Country.

The_wall_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

I have encountered members of all the services Military Police as well as members of CID, NCIS, AFOSI.  I have always had a positive opinion of all involved and think that they are equals as Law Enforcement Officers, their beats may be different, however they deal with the same crap we do in a different setting.


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Steve_mcqueen_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

HUT66;    Your posting just about sums it up, a LEO is a LEO period. The Military on duty is the same job, the Government however in it's infinite wisdom doe's not like people carrying guns around except in the field of battle. Hell even then some idiot butter bar will give you a hard time for carrying a "Hot Weapon". Usually they did not last very long back in the 60's , all you needed to do was snap them a nice long salute in a hot zone,  sing-loy.


Glory earned on the field of battle , can never be taken away , you take it with you to the grave. Quote by General George Armstrong Custer

Evil_shinanigans_max600_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

I too was a Marine Corps, MP.  Currently, I'm a Federal Police Officer for the Veterans Affairs.  In the Federal system, there is a HUGE distinction between Police "Officer" type positions, (military MP included) and "Agent" type positions.  I consider MP's the same as any other Federal Police.  It is a "specialized" police field. 


Just like in the Military, there is service rivalry and "ELITISM" in law enforcement.  Some State Police think that the are the most prestigious agency around, while the city cops call them "AAA roadside assistance".  Is an SDPD Officer more of a cop than a Sheriff's Deputy in North Dakota?  No!  The DEMOGRAPHICS of your jurisdiction is not what determines whether you are a Law Enforcement Officer.   The express granted authority to enforce the law, whether directly granted by statute (like state granted, or congress granted), or administrative regulation (such as DOD and MPs) is what determines whether or not you are a cop. There are plenty of municipal cops out there who do less “police” work than base MPs. 


In general, Federal Police are completely restricted to Federal Property.  Their jurisdiction ends at the property line.  This Jurisdiction is strictly regulated by Congress, and dozens of bureaucrats at the DC level who have zero knowledge of LE.  Each federal agency has its own set of federal laws and regulations concerning Law Enforcement on that agency's property.  It's confusing, and inconsistent.  Some agencies, such as BIA, FPS, and are allowed to make agreements with locals for mutual aid, and enforcement, but that is still subject to the local agencies and bureaucratic issues.  Most federal Police are not so lucky, and are completely constrained by property lines, rediculous regulations, and half hearted prosecutors.  As a VA cop, my credentials, patches and badge say POLICE, but 99% of our Law Enforcement is relegated to Citations beacuse most US Attorney's Offices don't want to deal with Misdemeanor and Petty offenses.


What most State and Local Cops don't understand is how restrictive Federal LE really is.  They see DEA, FBI, and ATF Agent types runing around with great amounts of latatude, (alot of which is Hollywood fiction) but those guys only make up 10% of all federal LEOs.


 


 


 


 

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Rated +1 | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Here is my perspective as a former Army MP and current civilian LEO:  In my five years as an MP, I served strictly in a Garrison (Law Enforcement) capacity.  I consider myself to be one of the lucky ones, as most MP's are lucky to spend a year in a Garrison environment these days.  In my time as an MP, I responded to a multitude of situations.  From domestics to intoxicated persons to homicides to aircraft crashes to gang investigations, I saw just as much, if not MORE than I have as a civilian law enforcement officer.  As an MP, I encountered armed suspects and rolled around a time or two in a ditch with a civilian or soldier.  I also had the power to temporarily deprive a person of their freedom, just as I have the same power as a civilian law enforcement officer.  As a member of the Military Police, I had more powers and tools to rectify a situation than I do as a civilian law enforcement officer.  For example, I would be dealing with a difficult member of the military. You give that person a lawful order to do be quiet, return to the barracks room, clear the street, identify themselves, etc. etc. and they fail to heed your lawful order.  Guess what?  Click click.  Soldiers are held to a higher standard than civilians.  As a civilian police officer, I often times have to let a civilian run all over me to a degree.  Another luxury of being an MP was not having to worry about civil liability.  


I tell several of my friends who I currently work with in the civilian community stories of my time as an MP and they often times tell me "I had no clue that type of stuff occurred on military installations."   


Now, as to the question:  "Do I consider and view Military Police to be and hold the same standards as Civilian Police?"  The answer to this question is no.  They are definitely two different beasts.  While the "job" itself is similar, as I cited above, there are distinct differences.  I learned the basics from the military and am quite proud as my time in the Military Police.  I don't think I would be half the police officer I am now had I not been an MP first.  I compare my job now to the military police the same way I would compare my job to the U.S. Marshals, FBI, ATF, and so on and so forth.  Do I consider Military Police to be law enforcement?  The answer to this question is yes.  The main thing to remember is it is just a different kind of law enforcement. 

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Equals all day everyday


Be careful what you ask for... You just might get it....

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Why wouldnt they be at the same standards or level as civilian police, dont MPS interact with non military civilians and dependents with as much frequency as regular municipal officers?

Brotherhood_badge_with_black_ribbon_max160_max160_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

I consider them equals.  One of my friends is a Montgomery County Deputy Sheriff and also a reserve army MP!

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

HUT66 says ...



This horse has been beaten ad nauseum. That being said, while I have great respect for PSD, I disagree with him to a certain degree on this particular subject. Also, before i launch into this, PSD's points are completely valid and NO ONE could ever accuse him of not doing his homework. This guy knows what the hell he's talking about so this is directed to the uninformed civilian officer who's never served a day in the military and speaks from a position of ignorance.


I also have seen MPs from both sides. I will agree that the overall standards for becoming an MP are not as stringent as those for a civilian officer. I will also grant that the law enforcement part of an MP's training leaves something to be desired. However when functioning in their LE capacity, MPs are required and expected to perform--for the most part--the exact same duties as any other LEO.... They enforce traffic laws/regs including criminal violations by military AND civilians within their jurisdictions, they make criminal arrests (dont give me the arrest vs apprehension argument... they both mean the same thing in court), they conduct and follow through on crimnal investigations such as domestic violence, child abuse, sex cases...you name it. They prepare their reports for trial and testify in court. They process crime scenes and interview witnesses and suspects. They have the same evidence proceedures that we have. They do the same job folks!


Are their differences?....certainly there are. No, they cant carry off duty nor do they generally have police powers off duty and, unfortunately, they sometimes lack the specialized training of their civilian counterparts. I guess what I'm getting at is that an MP patrolman does pretty much the same things that I do and their LEO duties are just as dangerous and stressful as anyone else that wears a badge--more so at times! How would you like to have to salute the little weasel whom you have just cited?!


Are there differences? Sure as hell....but for the uninformed civilian LEO to make a blanket statement that MPs are not "real LEOs" is no less foolish than some pointy headed FBI suit saying that patrol officers arent real cops. 


I have always thought--even 100 years ago when I was a USMC MP--that the main problem MPs have is their bosses and the system in which they have to work. Quite often a provost marshal (the chief MP on a base) has no LEO experience himself...Hell, at Quantico our PM was a fighter pilot! The poor enlisted MPs are expected to do all the LEO stuff while, at the same time, kissing the asses of anyone wearing a chunk of brass on their shoulders. MP brass is often thrilled when an MP patrolman makes great DUI cases on jr NOCs and non-rates but are chastised when they "ruin the career" of some drunk master sgt or captain. These guys are expected by their higher-ups to be cops only when it's convenient to the brass but when the bad guy is someone senior they get reminded "You're supposed to be a Marine first."


The military justice process is, of course VERY different.... MPs primarily report the findings of their investigations (if the suspect is in the military) to the suspect's own command for disposition, formal charges, etc. If they take some drunk into custody the subj is genarally turned released in the custody on their unit's duty officer...as opposed to being taken to jail...booked, made to post bond, etc. Civilian suspects are also usually released ROR to a responsible party and given what amounts to a notice to appear at federal magistrates court (DD form 1805 if i remember correctly) and the charges are for violating a state statute (such as Va. statute 18.2-266 for DUI if memory serves  lol).


Bottom line is, in my opinion, that while someof the comparisons are "apples to oranges", overall these guys are enforcers of the law...period! Ive dealt with some damn fine MPs since I became a civilian officer and they were just as proffessional and street savy as any civ cop I've ever worked with. They just have a bunch of other duties IN ADDITION to their LEO duties.


So there!   lol...... my 2 or maybe 50 cents worth.


Semper Fi!!


Hutch



Hutch, you dropped a hundred dollar bill!  Bump!

Airborne_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

HUT66 says ...



This horse has been beaten ad nauseum. That being said, while I have great respect for PSD, I disagree with him to a certain degree on this particular subject. Also, before i launch into this, PSD's points are completely valid and NO ONE could ever accuse him of not doing his homework. This guy knows what the hell he's talking about so this is directed to the uninformed civilian officer who's never served a day in the military and speaks from a position of ignorance.


I also have seen MPs from both sides. I will agree that the overall standards for becoming an MP are not as stringent as those for a civilian officer. I will also grant that the law enforcement part of an MP's training leaves something to be desired. However when functioning in their LE capacity, MPs are required and expected to perform--for the most part--the exact same duties as any other LEO.... They enforce traffic laws/regs including criminal violations by military AND civilians within their jurisdictions, they make criminal arrests (dont give me the arrest vs apprehension argument... they both mean the same thing in court), they conduct and follow through on crimnal investigations such as domestic violence, child abuse, sex cases...you name it. They prepare their reports for trial and testify in court. They process crime scenes and interview witnesses and suspects. They have the same evidence proceedures that we have. They do the same job folks!


Are their differences?....certainly there are. No, they cant carry off duty nor do they generally have police powers off duty and, unfortunately, they sometimes lack the specialized training of their civilian counterparts. I guess what I'm getting at is that an MP patrolman does pretty much the same things that I do and their LEO duties are just as dangerous and stressful as anyone else that wears a badge--more so at times! How would you like to have to salute the little weasel whom you have just cited?!


Are there differences? Sure as hell....but for the uninformed civilian LEO to make a blanket statement that MPs are not "real LEOs" is no less foolish than some pointy headed FBI suit saying that patrol officers arent real cops. 


I have always thought--even 100 years ago when I was a USMC MP--that the main problem MPs have is their bosses and the system in which they have to work. Quite often a provost marshal (the chief MP on a base) has no LEO experience himself...Hell, at Quantico our PM was a fighter pilot! The poor enlisted MPs are expected to do all the LEO stuff while, at the same time, kissing the asses of anyone wearing a chunk of brass on their shoulders. MP brass is often thrilled when an MP patrolman makes great DUI cases on jr NOCs and non-rates but are chastised when they "ruin the career" of some drunk master sgt or captain. These guys are expected by their higher-ups to be cops only when it's convenient to the brass but when the bad guy is someone senior they get reminded "You're supposed to be a Marine first."


The military justice process is, of course VERY different.... MPs primarily report the findings of their investigations (if the suspect is in the military) to the suspect's own command for disposition, formal charges, etc. If they take some drunk into custody the subj is genarally turned released in the custody on their unit's duty officer...as opposed to being taken to jail...booked, made to post bond, etc. Civilian suspects are also usually released ROR to a responsible party and given what amounts to a notice to appear at federal magistrates court (DD form 1805 if i remember correctly) and the charges are for violating a state statute (such as Va. statute 18.2-266 for DUI if memory serves  lol).


Bottom line is, in my opinion, that while someof the comparisons are "apples to oranges", overall these guys are enforcers of the law...period! Ive dealt with some damn fine MPs since I became a civilian officer and they were just as proffessional and street savy as any civ cop I've ever worked with. They just have a bunch of other duties IN ADDITION to their LEO duties.


So there!   lol...... my 2 or maybe 50 cents worth.


Semper Fi!!


Hutch



Very well put!!!


Be nice. Be professional. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

Misery minus me equals humor.

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

Shi_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Well, I will say that all of your posts are great and every one has their side of the coin. I guess I should have been more direct in my question as to the garrison side of the MP job and not the WHOLE side of the MP job including the field work.


HUT66, I got to give it to you brother, VERY WELL said. PSD, great point as well, but I was leaning towards the garrison work of an MP. Sorry, not so clear on that. As far as MP's carrying of base, Travis nice point. Never really thought of it that way, but makes sense. Right now, CID, K-9, and a few select MP's can carry off base, but only in the limits of their duties. (As far as I know, CID might carry 24/7 but I dont think so). However, in the Marine Corps order and the Code of conduct book for the Civilian Marince Corps Police, it states that the Provost Marshal or Police Chief (depending if your base is a Provost Marshal or a Police Department) can authorize credentials to carry off base if deemed necessary. This is a battle that myself and many other civilian Marine Corps Police officers at my base and other bases are fighting to get the ball rolling on this issue.  For what I have been told, there is an order that has been made to where we can carry off base, but it is in DC sitting on some ones desk waiting for approval.


As far as myself goes, I have a concealed carrying permit and I carry my personal weapon with me when off duty. I do this because for number 1 the safety of my family and myself (now adays, you never know where you will be when some one starts shooting for no reason), but I dont want to run in to some Marine or civilian that I charged with DWI, Assault, etc and he or she decides to retaliate. When I leave work, I am still in my uniform but I have no weapon. I dont really feel comfortable doing that, but I was told that I need to change clothes before I leave if its an issue and I agree to a point.


The bad part about all of it is that the Marine Corps has always looked at the MP's kind of in the same way PSD does, in the military field aspect of it and not from a civilian police officer and police department aspect. However, every base is getting worse and worse with crime and garrison law enforcement is a must and must be treated no different then a civilian community outside the gates! This is new the Marine Corps and they are trying to get on the train and catch up with the logistics aspect of law enforcement. This is a very very slow process and I think in time things will change. I think a lot of people think of the Military bases being primarily quiet and low crime, but that is NO WHERE near the truth! There are a lot of things that happens on Military bases that the civilian community never hears about. Why do you ask, well the last thing the Marine Corps wants the public to know is that while most people view the USMC as beint the elite force in US Military, have HUGE problems with their Marines and they dont want to discredit the "USMC" name and lose any respect. They want people to feel safe when coming aboard any base. Lots of "Heavy" weapons (Ak-47 primarily) are being more and more common. Gangs such as MS-13, Latin Kings, Bloods, etc. and more and more common. So much construction is going on now 24-7 and we are dealing more and more with civilians as much as military personnel. Drugs are a huge problem (especially at Quantico do to there being a civilian town in the center of the base).


I DO NOT treat any military person, regardless of rank, any different than I would a civilian when enforcing laws, approaching to question, etc. Military personnel are coming home from a very stressful combat zone, some with PTSD, and come back to find that their significant other has either took all of their money and left, left for another man or woman, or coming home still with that combat environment mind set, or trying to ease the pain with alcohol or drugs. If any thing, these types of people are more dangerous and more apt to lose control of their emotions than the average civilian. This is leading to more domestics, shootings, suicides, assaults, DWI's etc. So, all in all, this is a great discussion in my eyes and thank you all for your input!


EZE

Lakewood_pd_max50

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Rated +1 | Posted about 5 years ago

 

As I stated before Military Police are not law enforcement officers, period. They are MILITARY POLICE. Key word MILITARY. I did the job and it was a great foundation for what I do now. An 18 year old kid fresh out of boot is not an LEO. As a municipal police officer in New Jersey, I went through an extensive background investigation, physical, psych, etc, then went to a 26 week academy, followed by four months of field training, before I was on my own. Where I work, there is very little turnover or change. Guys do not leave for other duty stations, or police departments. We are professional police officers and are held to the highest standards. In New Jersey, our hands are tied to an extent by the liberal courts, yet we go out and work our asses. Our benefits, salary, etc are amongst the finest in the country. The job of police officer here is a profession, and a highly respected one at that. You are not a police officer as an MP plain and simple.


MP's have LE authority when they are on duty in their garrison environment. Do they handle calls for service, enforce motor vehicle laws, etc, yes. However the training that you receive to do the job is minimal, and there is no set standard service wide. At Fort Campbell, we worked alot of Gate Duties and did some roving patrols. The PM's office and the post in general were not  LE friendly. In Hawaii, it was an absolute joke. In Germany, well we did what we had to do but had no real authority. Guys stated it best in that MP's do not have to abide by civilian laws or liability and as such do different things than we do. They do not have to worry about NJ State DV laws and mandatory arrest situations, etc. They are not SWORN LAW ENFORCEMENT officers and are not recognized as such.


I know that I might piss alot of people off but this being said, I have all the respect for guys and gals in the service, and extend them courtesy whenever possible. I extend them professional courtesy as I do other LEO's. As was said before, apples to oranges comparison. Both are fruits but completely different.

Meangreen01_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

MP's are real cops, no question.  If you've ever backed them up or have been backed up by them, you know that to be a fact. 


"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." ~ George Orwell

"Honor First!"

MODERATOR #1 & PL Mentoring Team Member

Shi_max50

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+1

Rated +1 | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Well I have to say that I write just as many 1805's as I do 1408's on a daily basis. Depending on the offense and if they are military or not, they get 1805's and yes some military get 1805's. We can write for any and every thing regardless of who they are or what their rank is. I have testified in about 10 court martials, including the most recent where a Lt. was drinking and driving and killed his passenger while on base. I reconstructed that accident and that was about a month long proceeding. I know the Amendments very well and deal with them on a daily basis. I cant speak for other branches on what they do, but I know at Ft. Belvoir where my wife works as a criminal investigator, EVERY ONE gets 1805's for all offenses and goes to court in Fairfax. I beg to differ on 18 year olds fresh out of boot camp cant be LEO's. What difference is it when a civilian finishes high school, works a job not LE oriented and then attends a police academy? Like I said, I cant speak for other branches, but in the Marine Corps once you graduate boot camp and Marine Combat Training, MP's go to MP school for nine weeks. Yes, it is forced fed and not all LE topics are covered, but after they get to the assigned duty station, they then go through another five to nine week training at their station called pre service. This covers EVERY thing related to LE ONLY including UCMJ!! Active shooter, building clearing, report writing, testifyin in court, qualifying with the service pistol, traffic stops, high risk traffic stops, etc. They cover every thing they just got through doing in MP school. Then once that is done, they stand at a gate for a minimum of two months and issue citations, process DWI's, so on and so forth. Once that is done, they go through a FTO program. The length of that program all depends on how many the FTO officer is trying to train and how fast they pick the knowledge up and perform it. Then they are let go on their own. On top of that they go to various schools. For instance, SWAT school (same school FBI agents attend), Accident Investigation school, Advanced Reconstructionist Accident Investigation School (Same school local PD's attend in FL) Hostage Negotiation School (Taught by the FBI), Police Investigator School (Same school Richmond, VA officers attend), and you are trying to tell me that they are not trained? I really disagree with you on this one. I am sure some of you are officers of some fine PD's, but I can say the same thing that you are not as trained as NC Highway Patrol is, because I know that is one of the hardest academys in the Nation. Yes, some PD's require more training and have harder academy's, but does that make you any less of an LEO than the other? NO!!


EZE

Lakewood_pd_max50

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+1

Rated +1 | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Protector in Blue you are beating this to death. I am not going to argue with you on who has the bigger set of you know what. I can only relate to you that I did the MP thing when I was on active duty for 5 years. My experience is different than yours. You deal with a different segment of the population than we do. Most of the people you deal with are either military or dependants and the majority respect your position. In addition, if they give you crap well you can go to their chain of command etc.


In our world of civilian police work, I deal with anyone from Joe Princeton University professor, Joe mega millionaire, to Joe scumbag gang member out of Trenton, our deplorable state capital. There are no gates, no restricted entry, etc. We deal with a completely different class of people that by the inherent nature of the restricted access to military installations, generally do have access to bases, post, etc. The training that we receive here in New Jersey is amongst the toughest in the U.S. The academy I attended was featured in Court TV's "The Elite" in 2002. I will never knock any brother officer, but you my friend are trying to call me out. I do not know what the NC State Police go thru for training, but I can tell you that the NJSP are known to have one of the most difficult academies in the country. I do not know what your training involved, but I went thru MP School at Fort McClellan, AL  in 1997 when it was nine weeks long, same training as marines as they attended the same school.


There is a big difference between an 18 year old kid out of high school vs someone who is 22 out of college, or someone older with life experience. What I stated before I stand by. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry can go to MEPS and say I wanna be an MP as long as their ASVAB scores are good enough. I served with some people that HAD NO business being MP's. Our hiring standards are amongst the most difficult in the nation, and on average, for every police officer position in NJ there are 200 applicants. There are many departments here that compensation is at or above $100.000 per year base pay to include where I work. Again the hiring process weeds out alot of the people that have no business being cops. And if during probation an officer cannot hack it, they are let go. This all part of the process here. Most cops I know in other places would kill to for our benefits, pay, etc. I worked my ass off to get hired up here, to include my Army time, and then an Associate's Degree in Criminal Justice, followed by a Bachelor's Degree in Political Science.


Now this being said, there are some damn good soldiers, marines, etc serving as Military Police officers all over that can hack it with the best of them. And there are a good amount that take the training they receive in the service and use to their advantage to become civilian LEO's. Again I am not knocking MP's but merely stating it how it is.


PSD Leader I respect your opinions but Soldiers/Marines etc.... can not be compared to police officers because as you said everyone is a soldier, marine first, Then an MP. You are making a comparison stating that we are lesser. I beg to differ, two completely different career fields, each with their own inherent risks and danger. If you ask any former MP that works as a municipal police officer they will tell you that it is apples and oranges when comparing the two.

Shi_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Mudpuppy, I am not trying to call you out. I am just stating my point of view as you have yours. Yes I agree with you. There are a lot of MP's that have not business being MP's, just as there are a lot of civilian LEO's that have no business being an LEO. And I will say this, if I was a Police Chief and I was trying to decide between two applicants, one being an Iraq veteran being a machine gunner and one being a college graduate with a degree in what ever field, I would take that veteran any day of the week. I have met some of the most mature 18 and 19 year olds and have met the dumbest  Lt.'s with degrees. A degree means nothing when it comes to maturity! I am not trying to say that MP's deal with the same kind of people than a civilian officer does. I know that civilian LE deal with a broader range of people than MP's do on a daily basis, but MP's deal with people randing from Generals to Joe the civilian crack head that jumped the fence to go to the civilian community of Q-Town that is in the center of Quantico. All I asked was if in your opinion do you consider MP's to hold the same standards as civilian LEO's? I respect you opinion. I dont know how long you have been out of the military, but in the Corps, not just any one can be an MP. Now, if you do any thing and I mean any thing alcohol related, assaultive, domestic, or any negative contact with any one law enforcement, they take your badge, your MOS, and you are out the door. They dont play these days. Like I said, I can only speak on that from the Corps side. I am sure you are a fine police officer and work for a fine PD. I know all LEO's on here at some point have busted their rear ends to get where they are, just as you have. But I dont view any LEO that makes 25,000 dollars a year any less than some one that makes 200,000 dollars a year. They are all LEO's and do the same job, and in my eyes including MP's. I will say this, I get more respect now as a civilian officer than I did as an MP. Why? Because now those higher ranking officials cant pull rank and try to talk down to you. You have your opinion and I have mine. That is what discussions are for. No harm intended and no disrespect intended.


EZE

Lakewood_pd_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Fair enough Protector in Blue, well stated post. I got out in 2002 and my experience is definately different than yours is. I agree that the whole pulling rank thing was ridiculous, and to an extent undermined the authority of enlisted MP's. I think that as an on duty MP, one should wear the rank of U.S. instead your actual rank as many CID enlisted men do. Blue you have made an articulated argument and for that I applaud you.


I believe that with no uniformity Army or Marine Corp wide, not all of MP's are held to the same standards as civilian LEO's. The reason I state this is that most states set standards for all police officers that are the minimums for that state, and the services from what I saw it all depended on the individual post or installation. Now granted all police departments are not created equal, some better than others, some more militaristic than others, but all in all there in minimum standards and the threat of legal action that makes individual officers and police departments comply with state mandates. I can tell you that here in NJ we are very regulated by the liberal jerkoffs that run our state who it seems are always trying to undermine us in what we can and cannot do.


If the military were to set standards similiar to an accreditation process service wide that all MP's have to meet, then I would consider them to be held to the same standards. However based upon my experiences in Germany, Hawaii, and Ft. Campbell where we were not held to the same standards and the powers that be did not make the effort nor cared about MP's, I would say no. Protector, be safe out there brother and if you are ever up this way, give me a shout and I will buy you an ice cold beverage of your choice!

Deck_102__large___small__max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Police is Police no matter where your jurisdiction is.  Just be carful and we all what to go home, after our shift is done. 


Semper fi,


PC

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