PoliceLink

I consider military police to be police officers, and yes, they should be held to the same standards.

I was an MP for 71/2 years before the Border Patrol and they should be considered equals. I handled every call that so-called regular cops do and I was an accident reconstructionist and worked undercover narcotics. The military is a good place to learn the job and you learn if the career field is for you or not.

Hey I consider them LEO's just specialized ones. One because of the Military portion attached to it any others normally view as Oh they are soldiers not police. CID agents are highly valued and considered first before any other civilian for federal LEO positions. I think part of the problem is it might be a little hint of jelousy(forgive spelling if not right) for in military community we have access to tons of training and schools that normal LEO's have to pay for. It would be nice to get credentials for that since I plan to do that for National Guard once I leave active duty. Another part of problem some LEo's might have with it is that your JOB description kinda will turn a few heads for when I looked up the MOS this is the description that it gave. " Military Police are a specialty combat arms job that involves applying local, federal, and international laws for combat actions and war time areas. In addition to this in garrison they have to uphold state, federal and military law as applicable on federal reserves used by the armed forces and when in need can be called upon to assit local athority's in investigations, serving federal and other warrants, and any other application of military and other laws. Additional duties can include prison guard, narcotics team, military rapid response team(SWAT), criminal investigations, traffic enforcement, K9 teams for variety of purposes, riot control and the list goes on and on LOL." I think they kinda get the feeling you are doing what they are suppose to be doing LOL. Oh and MP's are sworn in just with the big oath not regular LEO swear in. LOL I also think they kinda get little antsy since military likes to keep everything as much as possible in house and do not tell regular LEO's everything that is going on. The movie "The Generals Daughter" comes to mind when he skunked the LEO's and he was a CID agent.

Hey PIB one more for you you would never lose your job as MP because of budget cuts where regular LEO has to worry about that.

Worldviewer says ...

Hey PIB one more for you you would never lose your job as MP because of budget cuts where regular LEO has to worry about that.

That's not totally true. During the Clinton era, there were A LOT of military cut backs, and LOTS of soldiers lost their jobs, or had to re-class into new fields. It may not have been MP specific, but there have been cut backs throughout history. Because of the restructuring in the last few years, to Brigade Combat Teams, the Brigade I used to be a part of lost most of their infantry positions, which were converted to other support fields. Just because it's a Gov't/Military job doesn't always mean it's secure. A lot of army posts are now patrolled  by civilian contractors now as well due to the combat role of the MP's.

mudpuppynj says ...

I was an MP for five years active duty, and where I was we were not real cops. I respect guys on here that say MP's are LEO's and all that. But in this day and age where the majority of the work is in the field and less and less garrison work I feel that an MP is not a run of the mill police officer. Now this being said, I enjoyed my time, and was exposed to patrol duties at two large installations, and my service time helped me immensely in getting hired as a municipal police officer. I know some of you are gonna disagree with me and that is fine. This is my two cents so to speak.

+1

and since this thread seems to come up about once a month in some form or fashion, Ive said exactly what you have said several times.  The fact that this question keeps getting asked should be the answer in itself....

I cant speak for other branches of service, but I know when I was in the Marine Corps, if you were garrison then that is all you did. No field work at all. The only time I did the field side of MP was when I went to Iraq. Maybe other branches do it differently.

This horse has been beaten ad nauseum. That being said, while I have great respect for PSD, I disagree with him to a certain degree on this particular subject. Also, before i launch into this, PSD's points are completely valid and NO ONE could ever accuse him of not doing his homework. This guy knows what the hell he's talking about so this is directed to the uninformed civilian officer who's never served a day in the military and speaks from a position of ignorance.

I also have seen MPs from both sides. I will agree that the overall standards for becoming an MP are not as stringent as those for a civilian officer. I will also grant that the law enforcement part of an MP's training leaves something to be desired. However when functioning in their LE capacity, MPs are required and expected to perform--for the most part--the exact same duties as any other LEO.... They enforce traffic laws/regs including criminal violations by military AND civilians within their jurisdictions, they make criminal arrests (dont give me the arrest vs apprehension argument... they both mean the same thing in court), they conduct and follow through on crimnal investigations such as domestic violence, child abuse, sex cases...you name it. They prepare their reports for trial and testify in court. They process crime scenes and interview witnesses and suspects. They have the same evidence proceedures that we have. They do the same job folks!

Are their differences?....certainly there are. No, they cant carry off duty nor do they generally have police powers off duty and, unfortunately, they sometimes lack the specialized training of their civilian counterparts. I guess what I'm getting at is that an MP patrolman does pretty much the same things that I do and their LEO duties are just as dangerous and stressful as anyone else that wears a badge--more so at times! How would you like to have to salute the little weasel whom you have just cited?!

Are there differences? Sure as hell....but for the uninformed civilian LEO to make a blanket statement that MPs are not "real LEOs" is no less foolish than some pointy headed FBI suit saying that patrol officers arent real cops. 

I have always thought--even 100 years ago when I was a USMC MP--that the main problem MPs have is their bosses and the system in which they have to work. Quite often a provost marshal (the chief MP on a base) has no LEO experience himself...Hell, at Quantico our PM was a fighter pilot! The poor enlisted MPs are expected to do all the LEO stuff while, at the same time, kissing the asses of anyone wearing a chunk of brass on their shoulders. MP brass is often thrilled when an MP patrolman makes great DUI cases on jr NOCs and non-rates but are chastised when they "ruin the career" of some drunk master sgt or captain. These guys are expected by their higher-ups to be cops only when it's convenient to the brass but when the bad guy is someone senior they get reminded "You're supposed to be a Marine first."

The military justice process is, of course VERY different.... MPs primarily report the findings of their investigations (if the suspect is in the military) to the suspect's own command for disposition, formal charges, etc. If they take some drunk into custody the subj is genarally turned released in the custody on their unit's duty officer...as opposed to being taken to jail...booked, made to post bond, etc. Civilian suspects are also usually released ROR to a responsible party and given what amounts to a notice to appear at federal magistrates court (DD form 1805 if i remember correctly) and the charges are for violating a state statute (such as Va. statute 18.2-266 for DUI if memory serves  lol).

Bottom line is, in my opinion, that while someof the comparisons are "apples to oranges", overall these guys are enforcers of the law...period! Ive dealt with some damn fine MPs since I became a civilian officer and they were just as proffessional and street savy as any civ cop I've ever worked with. They just have a bunch of other duties IN ADDITION to their LEO duties.

So there!   lol...... my 2 or maybe 50 cents worth.

Semper Fi!!

Hutch

I have encountered members of all the services Military Police as well as members of CID, NCIS, AFOSI.  I have always had a positive opinion of all involved and think that they are equals as Law Enforcement Officers, their beats may be different, however they deal with the same crap we do in a different setting.

I too was a Marine Corps, MP.  Currently, I'm a Federal Police Officer for the Veterans Affairs.  In the Federal system, there is a HUGE distinction between Police "Officer" type positions, (military MP included) and "Agent" type positions.  I consider MP's the same as any other Federal Police.  It is a "specialized" police field. 

Just like in the Military, there is service rivalry and "ELITISM" in law enforcement.  Some State Police think that the are the most prestigious agency around, while the city cops call them "AAA roadside assistance".  Is an SDPD Officer more of a cop than a Sheriff's Deputy in North Dakota?  No!  The DEMOGRAPHICS of your jurisdiction is not what determines whether you are a Law Enforcement Officer.   The express granted authority to enforce the law, whether directly granted by statute (like state granted, or congress granted), or administrative regulation (such as DOD and MPs) is what determines whether or not you are a cop. There are plenty of municipal cops out there who do less “police” work than base MPs. 

In general, Federal Police are completely restricted to Federal Property.  Their jurisdiction ends at the property line.  This Jurisdiction is strictly regulated by Congress, and dozens of bureaucrats at the DC level who have zero knowledge of LE.  Each federal agency has its own set of federal laws and regulations concerning Law Enforcement on that agency's property.  It's confusing, and inconsistent.  Some agencies, such as BIA, FPS, and are allowed to make agreements with locals for mutual aid, and enforcement, but that is still subject to the local agencies and bureaucratic issues.  Most federal Police are not so lucky, and are completely constrained by property lines, rediculous regulations, and half hearted prosecutors.  As a VA cop, my credentials, patches and badge say POLICE, but 99% of our Law Enforcement is relegated to Citations beacuse most US Attorney's Offices don't want to deal with Misdemeanor and Petty offenses.

What most State and Local Cops don't understand is how restrictive Federal LE really is.  They see DEA, FBI, and ATF Agent types runing around with great amounts of latatude, (alot of which is Hollywood fiction) but those guys only make up 10% of all federal LEOs.

I'm a retired LEO. I have known many military LEO, I consider them as brothers and equals.

Why wouldnt they be at the same standards or level as civilian police, dont MPS interact with non military civilians and dependents with as much frequency as regular municipal officers?

Im tired of hearing that MP's dont get to carry off duty and they cant enforce laws off base....Let me make this point to all my fellow brothers; We(cilivian) LEO's do not always carry off duty, I mean we are allowed too but we do not always..We do not carry our weapon with us to take our daughters or sons to go to the park or swiming etc. So what is  the difference If an MP cannot carry off duty? because we do not carry 24/7....Also we as LEO's can enforce all laws within our state, but tell me how many of us are going to enforce traffic on our off days(vacation etc) no one will!!!  If we see a fight we might try and intervene and get the partys moving but i mean a regular citizen can do that..WE ARE ALSO RESTRICTED from enforcing laws out of our STATE and if we do happen to enforce a law out of our jurisdiction we sometimes catch hell. So giving that just because an mp cannot enforce off base do not mean that they are not LEO's, because in that context you can call all "civilan" officers not cops because we cannot enforce every where in America.... Also it does not matter what type of laws MP's enforce, because every city police officer enforces different laws giving that all our respected cities has different ordinances....

HUT66 says ...

This horse has been beaten ad nauseum. That being said, while I have great respect for PSD, I disagree with him to a certain degree on this particular subject. Also, before i launch into this, PSD's points are completely valid and NO ONE could ever accuse him of not doing his homework. This guy knows what the hell he's talking about so this is directed to the uninformed civilian officer who's never served a day in the military and speaks from a position of ignorance.

I also have seen MPs from both sides. I will agree that the overall standards for becoming an MP are not as stringent as those for a civilian officer. I will also grant that the law enforcement part of an MP's training leaves something to be desired. However when functioning in their LE capacity, MPs are required and expected to perform--for the most part--the exact same duties as any other LEO.... They enforce traffic laws/regs including criminal violations by military AND civilians within their jurisdictions, they make criminal arrests (dont give me the arrest vs apprehension argument... they both mean the same thing in court), they conduct and follow through on crimnal investigations such as domestic violence, child abuse, sex cases...you name it. They prepare their reports for trial and testify in court. They process crime scenes and interview witnesses and suspects. They have the same evidence proceedures that we have. They do the same job folks!

Are their differences?....certainly there are. No, they cant carry off duty nor do they generally have police powers off duty and, unfortunately, they sometimes lack the specialized training of their civilian counterparts. I guess what I'm getting at is that an MP patrolman does pretty much the same things that I do and their LEO duties are just as dangerous and stressful as anyone else that wears a badge--more so at times! How would you like to have to salute the little weasel whom you have just cited?!

Are there differences? Sure as hell....but for the uninformed civilian LEO to make a blanket statement that MPs are not "real LEOs" is no less foolish than some pointy headed FBI suit saying that patrol officers arent real cops. 

I have always thought--even 100 years ago when I was a USMC MP--that the main problem MPs have is their bosses and the system in which they have to work. Quite often a provost marshal (the chief MP on a base) has no LEO experience himself...Hell, at Quantico our PM was a fighter pilot! The poor enlisted MPs are expected to do all the LEO stuff while, at the same time, kissing the asses of anyone wearing a chunk of brass on their shoulders. MP brass is often thrilled when an MP patrolman makes great DUI cases on jr NOCs and non-rates but are chastised when they "ruin the career" of some drunk master sgt or captain. These guys are expected by their higher-ups to be cops only when it's convenient to the brass but when the bad guy is someone senior they get reminded "You're supposed to be a Marine first."

The military justice process is, of course VERY different.... MPs primarily report the findings of their investigations (if the suspect is in the military) to the suspect's own command for disposition, formal charges, etc. If they take some drunk into custody the subj is genarally turned released in the custody on their unit's duty officer...as opposed to being taken to jail...booked, made to post bond, etc. Civilian suspects are also usually released ROR to a responsible party and given what amounts to a notice to appear at federal magistrates court (DD form 1805 if i remember correctly) and the charges are for violating a state statute (such as Va. statute 18.2-266 for DUI if memory serves  lol).

Bottom line is, in my opinion, that while someof the comparisons are "apples to oranges", overall these guys are enforcers of the law...period! Ive dealt with some damn fine MPs since I became a civilian officer and they were just as proffessional and street savy as any civ cop I've ever worked with. They just have a bunch of other duties IN ADDITION to their LEO duties.

So there!   lol...... my 2 or maybe 50 cents worth.

Semper Fi!!

Hutch

Hutch, you dropped a hundred dollar bill!  Bump!

Well, I will say that all of your posts are great and every one has their side of the coin. I guess I should have been more direct in my question as to the garrison side of the MP job and not the WHOLE side of the MP job including the field work.

HUT66, I got to give it to you brother, VERY WELL said. PSD, great point as well, but I was leaning towards the garrison work of an MP. Sorry, not so clear on that. As far as MP's carrying of base, Travis nice point. Never really thought of it that way, but makes sense. Right now, CID, K-9, and a few select MP's can carry off base, but only in the limits of their duties. (As far as I know, CID might carry 24/7 but I dont think so). However, in the Marine Corps order and the Code of conduct book for the Civilian Marince Corps Police, it states that the Provost Marshal or Police Chief (depending if your base is a Provost Marshal or a Police Department) can authorize credentials to carry off base if deemed necessary. This is a battle that myself and many other civilian Marine Corps Police officers at my base and other bases are fighting to get the ball rolling on this issue.  For what I have been told, there is an order that has been made to where we can carry off base, but it is in DC sitting on some ones desk waiting for approval.

As far as myself goes, I have a concealed carrying permit and I carry my personal weapon with me when off duty. I do this because for number 1 the safety of my family and myself (now adays, you never know where you will be when some one starts shooting for no reason), but I dont want to run in to some Marine or civilian that I charged with DWI, Assault, etc and he or she decides to retaliate. When I leave work, I am still in my uniform but I have no weapon. I dont really feel comfortable doing that, but I was told that I need to change clothes before I leave if its an issue and I agree to a point.

The bad part about all of it is that the Marine Corps has always looked at the MP's kind of in the same way PSD does, in the military field aspect of it and not from a civilian police officer and police department aspect. However, every base is getting worse and worse with crime and garrison law enforcement is a must and must be treated no different then a civilian community outside the gates! This is new the Marine Corps and they are trying to get on the train and catch up with the logistics aspect of law enforcement. This is a very very slow process and I think in time things will change. I think a lot of people think of the Military bases being primarily quiet and low crime, but that is NO WHERE near the truth! There are a lot of things that happens on Military bases that the civilian community never hears about. Why do you ask, well the last thing the Marine Corps wants the public to know is that while most people view the USMC as beint the elite force in US Military, have HUGE problems with their Marines and they dont want to discredit the "USMC" name and lose any respect. They want people to feel safe when coming aboard any base. Lots of "Heavy" weapons (Ak-47 primarily) are being more and more common. Gangs such as MS-13, Latin Kings, Bloods, etc. and more and more common. So much construction is going on now 24-7 and we are dealing more and more with civilians as much as military personnel. Drugs are a huge problem (especially at Quantico do to there being a civilian town in the center of the base).

I DO NOT treat any military person, regardless of rank, any different than I would a civilian when enforcing laws, approaching to question, etc. Military personnel are coming home from a very stressful combat zone, some with PTSD, and come back to find that their significant other has either took all of their money and left, left for another man or woman, or coming home still with that combat environment mind set, or trying to ease the pain with alcohol or drugs. If any thing, these types of people are more dangerous and more apt to lose control of their emotions than the average civilian. This is leading to more domestics, shootings, suicides, assaults, DWI's etc. So, all in all, this is a great discussion in my eyes and thank you all for your input!