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Patrol Rifles for University Police

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Me_max50

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Posted over 5 years ago

 

My fellow campus officers,


Our department, after recent criminal activities to include robbery and assaults, is finally looking to invest in long guns.  Everyone has a take on what rifle they favor or how the shotgun is indispensible, but I wanted some out-of-agency opinions on what you use or would like to use.  A nearby department has favored the Cx4, while others rely on the long-standing AR-15.  Of course, cost, training, and versatility are some of the factors we must consider, but if anyone has some solid opinions and resources to help guide our decisions, a reply would be appreciated.


Also, any university police agencies actively using BOTH rifles and shotguns?


Many thanks!


1* - a philosophy you can live by. My VA license plate: 1S2RSK. If you don't know, ask.

Jack_bauer_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 5 years ago

 

Do some research on the military program that gives Colt M-16's to local police departments. Our Campus got three of them this year, and have worked out great.They'll come with one magazine. I think they only cost our department shipping. Everything was free, how can your administration argue with that??? The only thing is, you can't modify them. Nice patrol rilfe in my opinion. Good luck!


 


Allen

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Rate This | Posted over 5 years ago

 

bmorgan says ...



I no longer work for a campus PD but it is where I got my start.   I think that a patrol rifle is a vital piece of equipment in any patrol car.  The problem (s) with the M-16 is it is a combat rifle designed for combat.  Full auto or even burst settings are very risky in an enviroment where you are responcible for every round you fire.  But the semi auto only version  (ar15) is excellent.  I definatly recomend the 16 inch over the 30 inch.  Space is tight in patrol cars and the extra 4 inches will not make a difference in the kind of shooting we do in LE.



Hopefully these M-16s are A2s and not the fully automatic A1 versions. I agree, fully automatic weapons have almost no place in patrol style law enforcement, and for the exact same reason you laid out.....accountability of every last round. At the same time, I can see a place for such weapons for the ELITE tactical LE teams that may have to deal with those who are armed with automatic weapons...but that is in extreme cases, the likes of which 99.9% of cops will never deal with.


Now having said that, I have to commend Allen for bringing up the DoD program that lends/gives weapons and gear to local law enforcement. I dont think I want to see patrol officers with automatic weapons, but I definately see a place in getting gear such as shotguns, M-14 rifles, M1911 pistols, etc etc.


As for campus LE and patrol rifles, EVERY officer or deputy in the American LE world should have one. Always better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Jack_bauer_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 5 years ago

 

PSDTeamLeader says ...



bmorgan says ...



I no longer work for a campus PD but it is where I got my start.   I think that a patrol rifle is a vital piece of equipment in any patrol car.  The problem (s) with the M-16 is it is a combat rifle designed for combat.  Full auto or even burst settings are very risky in an enviroment where you are responcible for every round you fire.  But the semi auto only version  (ar15) is excellent.  I definatly recomend the 16 inch over the 30 inch.  Space is tight in patrol cars and the extra 4 inches will not make a difference in the kind of shooting we do in LE.



Hopefully these M-16s are A2s and not the fully automatic A1 versions. I agree, fully automatic weapons have almost no place in patrol style law enforcement, and for the exact same reason you laid out.....accountability of every last round. At the same time, I can see a place for such weapons for the ELITE tactical LE teams that may have to deal with those who are armed with automatic weapons...but that is in extreme cases, the likes of which 99.9% of cops will never deal with.


Now having said that, I have to commend Allen for bringing up the DoD program that lends/gives weapons and gear to local law enforcement. I dont think I want to see patrol officers with automatic weapons, but I definately see a place in getting gear such as shotguns, M-14 rifles, M1911 pistols, etc etc.


As for campus LE and patrol rifles, EVERY officer or deputy in the American LE world should have one. Always better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.



Yes, they are the fully auto M16's, but as you know, they have three posistions on the selector switch. Safe, Semi, Auto. It's the same set up as on a AR15/semi-auto M4, but with the added Auto posistion. You need to turn the switch all the way back to hit Auto. Under stressful sitiatuions this may happen, but we are trained and have access to them 24/7 if we need to train further.


With that said, I carry my own M&P 15 made my Smith and Wesson with three extra 30 round mags. While the provided weapons have only one mag per weapon.


We also have five shotguns for patrol use.


 

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Rate This | Posted over 5 years ago

 

Some departments I've spoken to have gone to carbines that utilize their duty magazine, or at least .40 or 9mm rounds. This makes the ammo readily available off of the belt should you need to reload. Carbines such as Kel Tec's sub-2000 will actually take the following pistol magazines: Glock 22, S&W 4006, Beretta 96, SIG 226


While I am a big fan of the .223 AR/15 and Mini-14's, they are great for long range shooting, but may not be so great for confined hallways or buildings (although AR's such as the A4's compact size makes it more practical) that may be problematic at a campus.


Most of the 9mm carbines have an effective range of 150 yards, while the .40 caliber have just slighty under that due to the heavier bullet. Remember, the 9mm will be zinging out the end of a carbine at about 1300+ fps.


Of course, the best course of action is to have at least one of everything! Why not issue a shot gun and a carbine, and have supervisors carry an AR (of course everyone should be certified on every weapon regardless on who gets dibs on carrying it in the car!)

Photo_user_blank_big

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Rate This | Posted over 5 years ago

 

My department just last year began to start a patrol rifle program. The way our program works is a little expensive, but it works. We are going with the AR-15. We are putting a few officers at a time through the class and the rest is simple. Each officer is responsible for providing their own rifle, the expensive part, and they will be entered into the class. We can customize the rifle that we want to carry and the only real stipulation we have to stick to is a few different brands of optics.


Personally, I have built a 10.5 inch Stag Arms .223 AR-15 with: 6-pos. collapsible stock, aluminum quad rail, 535nm red laser, 200 lumen flashlight, finger groove grip, finger groove fore-grip, Magpul P-Mag's, and an Aimpoint Comp M2.


The short barrel costs about $200 more, because you have to get a federal stamp for it, but it is better suited for the college environment. Because of this advantage, many of our officers are beginning to build the short barrel version. If you are interested in building your own, the cheapest lower receiver, great quality, can be purchased through Essential Arms, www.essentialarms.com, for about $85. If you are looking for the accessory parts, you can't beat the deals on eBay or you can go to www.cdnnsports.com. There are tons of accessories out there and you can build a rifle to suit your needs and likes.

Evil_shinanigans_max600_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

If you are going to have a patrol rifle,


1.  You need to consider is if a suspect might have body armor.  What good will a pistol caliber long gun do you, if it still can't penetrate body armor.  A fast expanding .223 load will still penetrate a IIIA vest, but will it penetrate fewer internal walls than a 9mm because it has less mass, and loses velosity faster after hitting the first wall because it will tumble, and fragment.


2. Optics.  Good quality red-dot or Acog style optics are not operator specific.  The point of Aim for one operator, will be the same for anyone else who picks up the rifle.  As long as every rifle in the inventory has the same zero, there should be no issues.  This can't be said of other optics or open sights.  Make sure every officer is familiar with that zero.

Regular_patch_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

Our department has both, AR-15's  and Police Shotguns.  We have recently ordered some Less Lethal ammo for our shotgun and would try to use this if the situation applies.  We use TAP ammo in our rifles and service pistols so penetration is limited to structures like doors, walls and such.  We train for the worst case scenario, but I would not have a response team in my department without long guns.  Most active shooters will have AK or SKS because they are cheap, you can buy them at flea markets/gun shows and ammo is cheap.  The 7.62X39 round creates havoc and does not stop in doors or sheet rock.  If you don't have long guns, get'em.


Chief of Police
Ennis ISD Police Department

Purdue_pete3_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

My part-time is as a school police officer hense the reason why I joined the group.  My two cents is carry both the shotgun and the patrol rifle, especially in a college environment.  Both have positives and negatives, and both also are good for different tactical situations.  What every your department does, research the subject well as my expierence is that school boards/governing bodies are pretty ignorant on the subject.  To remove their ignorance, your department will need to mount a good presentation on your needs that you have identified to start the discussion in the first place.

Banner_suv_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 5 years ago

 

 We have  M4's with top notch tactical lighting, optics and each weapon is also paired up with a suppressor. There are also a few scatter guns kept in inventory for lock busting ops. 

Badge_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 5 years ago

 

We carry both shotguns and AR-15s in our patrol cars. We got our ARs last year and we are still working on outfitting every car with them as we get new cars in. Right now a majority of our fleet have the shotguns and rifles in the trunk but we have finally started graduating them to racks in the front, FINALLY!

Xmas_kids_032_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

Sadly, at our department, the upper management hasn't seen fit to release to us the patrol weapons that we could use. Upstairs in our weapons locker, we have 6 brand-new, still-in-the-plastic, Colt M4 rifles with Eotech holographic sights, forward lighted grips, and viridian green laser pointers on them. I personally have a brand new Benelli shotgun, and Springfield Armory SOCOMII ready to go.


But they will neither buy the ammo for training, nor authorized us to recieve the training; effectively stopping us from using them. Sad.


 


 

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Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

We carry both a shotgun and an m-16 in each vehicle, although we are looking to upgrade the 16's to M-4's with a short barrel (less than 16")

100_0214_max600_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

We have Remington 870's for aux. weapons, and about two years ago another officer and I went through patrol rifle instructor school.  The university has approved us to carry personal AR-15's, as long as they pass inspection/specs, and the officer has been trained and passes a qual course.  No other untrained officer can take someone else's AR out on patrol.  We are still trying to find funding to purchase department AR-15's.

Dsc02083_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 4 years ago

 

We have Remington 870's and Remington 7615 pump .223 as our patrol rifle ( on the 870 frame). Full autos in 9mm and .223 (not in cruisers)

Photo_user_blank_big

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Rate This | Posted about 4 years ago

 

The UGAPD uses AR-15s, which they bought in the wake of the VT shootings.  They previously had 870s in the cars.  The rifles became very popular with the personnel.  They have since dedicated the 870s to less lethal use.


As for the rifles, the first bacth was the standard Bushmaster LE carbine.  The next order they did was Colts, but I am not sure which particular model they got. 


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Rate This | Posted over 3 years ago

 

M1a socom 16 from springfield Armory caliber .308 winchester  box magazine 10rds to 30rds avalible short rifle great for patrol car easy to use excellent rifle.


shotguns can't go wrong with a Remington 870 for lethal and nonlethat projectiles.,,,


Good luck stay safe!   tell me what you think

Bronzestarribbon_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 3 years ago

 

I work part time for my university and full time for the county and I believe the AR 15 would be acceptable.  Shotguns are the preferred for the close quarters active shooter scenarios as well as the side arm.  An AR has it place, but if your University is in the middle of the city like mine, careful consideration to extensive training must be undertaken.  You don't want a new officer just checked out of the academy to get shoot happy and start launching rounds downrange at the biz district.  Extensive training, then once they are trained it takes continuous training in proficiency and that takes money.


Most Campus budgets are from 500 K to 1 Million in budgets, perhaps a few out there are more or even less, the point is training cost money, ammo costs money and most schools are staffed by liberal narrow minded staff that view that kind of weapon as a Police State in the making.  Despite violence of recent in the nations universities, these liberals an or former dope smoking twinky minded individuals with PhD's that think they know best because of their education credentials and memories of the 60's are making policy now.  Most University Police administrators answer to these kind of people.  One must be ready for that type of response.


Can't impress enough on training though.  One needs to look at the post shooting reviews from Virginia Tech and from other universities to determine the mind set of the student body, parents that are sending Jr and Jane to school and what they want their sheltered youth to experience while at college.  You can't even get them to remember to bring the serial number for their lap top when you have to take a theft report, sorry I digress.


If your University has mutual aid agreements with the Sheriff or PD, then likely the Campus PD is only going to be used to evacuate those people to safety and direct PD/SO  SWAT through the corridors  and stand guard.  I mean no disrespect to Campus PD Officers and agency's, I work for one after all, but the reality is exactly that.  The answer is buy some for your agency, but be prepared to train and train hard, budget and then be prepared to deal with all of the profs, staff, students, student governments and municipal governments and then the parents.  You might be surprised either way what you find out.  Don't let the agency store them in the squad room closet and never take them out, put em in the cars with the shotguns  and let them be seen because you can't use em if you don't have em.


I experienced this when I brought up tasers, and despite the research I did it was looked at, my work complimented and then stuffed into a file drawer in the Chief's Office.


Best of Luck on the prospect, keep us posted...


 

Esu_patch_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 3 years ago

 

I know this is an old topic but here goes my .02 cents. I did both the SWAT thing and the campus thing. I believe the AR15 family of weapons while nice may be a bit much on a college campus for a few reasons including cost of training and ammo costs. Forget about the shotgun altogether, one of the most difficult weapons to train with tactically. Can be a bear to shoot recoil wise which could be a problem with some officers. They also dont sling very well.  In the NYPD more time was devoted to shotgun training than with the MP5 or M4. My opinion, go with a pistol caliber carbine like the MP5, UMP45, Marlin etc. Use whatever cal your dept currently uses in their pistols, keeps the ammo costs down. The MP5 will give the offficer a very stable shooting platform, little to no recoil, the ability to take a well aimed shots at distances exceeding comfortable pistol distances, better ballistics due to longer barrel, higher ammo (magazine) capacity as well as the ability to go full auto if necessary and add whatever bells and whistles you want, lights, suppressors etc. To really save costs, check out Century Int. Arms, they have select fire Uzis for $225 US. Old school but still get the job done.

O_s_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 3 years ago

 

esu says ...



I know this is an old topic but here goes my .02 cents. I did both the SWAT thing and the campus thing. I believe the AR15 family of weapons while nice may be a bit much on a college campus for a few reasons including cost of training and ammo costs. Forget about the shotgun altogether, one of the most difficult weapons to train with tactically. Can be a bear to shoot recoil wise which could be a problem with some officers. They also dont sling very well.  In the NYPD more time was devoted to shotgun training than with the MP5 or M4. My opinion, go with a pistol caliber carbine like the MP5, UMP45, Marlin etc. Use whatever cal your dept currently uses in their pistols, keeps the ammo costs down. The MP5 will give the offficer a very stable shooting platform, little to no recoil, the ability to take a well aimed shots at distances exceeding comfortable pistol distances, better ballistics due to longer barrel, higher ammo (magazine) capacity as well as the ability to go full auto if necessary and add whatever bells and whistles you want, lights, suppressors etc. To really save costs, check out Century Int. Arms, they have select fire Uzis for $225 US. Old school but still get the job done.


 



If I remember correctly, the University PD down here only has shotguns. I could be wrong, but I do know they have them for sure, not sure about rifles. 


"Law enforcement officers are never 'off duty.' They are dedicated public servants who are sworn to protect public safety at any time and place that the peace is threatened. They need all the help that they can get."
- Barbara Boxer

"My heroes are those who risk their lives every day to protect our world and make it a better place - police, firefighters and members of our armed forces."
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Banner_suv_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 3 years ago

 

esu says ...



"I believe the AR15 family of weapons while nice may be a bit much on a college campus for a few reasons including cost of training and ammo costs."


 


esu, 


My campus is in a very rural area which translates to possible scenarios envolving shots of several hundred meters. We even have buildings/straight hallways in a few scenarios where shots of almost 200 meters could be taken. Money and trainging here (thank godness) is not an issue and we exspend a few thousand rounds on each of our 2 annual range days. Where also fortunate enough to have a staff of seasoned shooters/hunters that are comfortable with anything you give them. 


PS Just as a side note for curiosity purposes we also have fulltime university officers that work strictily in the adjoing city and have there own vehicles & equipment, does anyone else have a program like that?


 


 


O_s_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 3 years ago

 

blacksan says ...



esu says ...



"I believe the AR15 family of weapons while nice may be a bit much on a college campus for a few reasons including cost of training and ammo costs."


 


esu, 


My campus is in a very rural area which translates to possible scenarios envolving shots of several hundred meters. We even have buildings/straight hallways in a few scenarios where shots of almost 200 meters could be taken. Money and trainging here (thank godness) is not an issue and we exspend a few thousand rounds on each of our 2 annual range days. Where also fortunate enough to have a staff of seasoned shooters/hunters that are comfortable with anything you give them. 


PS Just as a side note for curiosity purposes we also have fulltime university officers that work strictily in the adjoing city and have there own vehicles & equipment, does anyone else have a program like that?




I'm not part of the University PD. But where I go to school, they have a full time staff of officers. Their own compound on the university, and patrol with units marked as university pd  around the university in agreement with the city pd. 



 



"Law enforcement officers are never 'off duty.' They are dedicated public servants who are sworn to protect public safety at any time and place that the peace is threatened. They need all the help that they can get."
- Barbara Boxer

"My heroes are those who risk their lives every day to protect our world and make it a better place - police, firefighters and members of our armed forces."
- Sidney

Esu_patch_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 3 years ago

 

I realize the ARs can reach out to 200 meters easily but do you really want to sending 223 rounds 200 meters downrange on a college campus with students and faculty and staff all around? Consider the penetration capabilities of the 223 compared to a pistol cal round. At 200 meters youre approaching sniper distance for most depts.

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Rate This | Posted about 3 years ago

 

the penetration abilities of the 223 are less than most pistol rounds as the 223's disintegrate upon hitting anything very hard (read walls)

Me2_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 3 years ago

 

Our department carries AR-15's, and a shotgun is optional. I would prefer the AR-15, considering that I have grown up with it. And I am suprised that as campus police that you don't carry a long riffle or shotgun. Just because you are in a school environment, which is prone to active shooter situations.


But yeah, my agency carries the AR-15, which is a great riffle.

Esu_patch_max50

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Rated +1 | Posted about 3 years ago

 

Absolutely not true, you need to go back and study your ballistics theory. Unless of course you are using frangible ammo. 1PP just had an active shooter seminar which included a ballistics demo video produced up at rodmans neck which included demos of pistol, shotgun and fmj rifle ammo. A little monotone but Det Louie Derespiris did a good job on the demo. 223 ball ammo will not disintegrate and in most cases will overpenetrate, it goes through steel plate even.

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Rate This | Posted about 3 years ago

 

I know (from having seen the aftermath) that pistol ammo can easily go through 2 cinder block and plasterboard walls crossing the room and hall in between, and bury its self in a 3rd.

Newpatch_sq90_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 3 years ago

 

We did away with shotguns and went with the M-4 on Campus.  The shotgun is not a good choice for a college campus, becasue of the long hallways and students in the halls.  We chose the M-4 for more direct fire.


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Esu_patch_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 3 years ago

 

TL,,, not gonna disagree with you on the 9mm penetration you witnessed. However I was talking 223 not 9mm. 223 will penetrate further, carry further than 9mm any day of the week. 223 will penetrate steel plate, 9mm will not no matter what bullet configuration you choose except maybe some exotic military use ammo. And 223 generally will not disintegrate when hitting a wall.

Esu_patch_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 3 years ago

 

JIMROC , I agree , get rid of the shotguns.

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