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K-9 Indications

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A85_max50

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Posted almost 7 years ago

 

What happens to your dept when you get sued when you K-9's indication to drugs is scratching instead of sitting? Do you pay the damages to the car or does your department have some kind of immunity?

Newpatch_sq90_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

No, when the dog alerts on a car, we usually find drugs. When we find the drugs we seize your car. After we seize your car we file for ownership of the car. Then we sell the car , "As is," at a public auction. Does this answer your question?


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A85_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

JIMROC said:

No, when the dog alerts on a car, we usually find drugs. When we find the drugs we seize your car. After we seize your car we file for ownership of the car. Then we sell the car , "As is," at a public auction. Does this answer your question?

Well, my fiance had me on a traffic stod and his K-9 indicated on the gas tank and scratched. He was able to pull him away before any major damages were done, but there was the threat of a lawsuit against him for the damages onto the car.

A85_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

as it turns out the guy had just smoked weed and went to the gas station to fill up his tank. thats how the dog indicated to the tank.

Newpatch_sq90_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

I would tell the guy to, "Stand in line."


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Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

My dog is passive alert for that reason.

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Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

If a person is stupid enough to have drugs in their car and my dog scratches it.. too bad, stop doing drugs!!!!

Img_1365_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

Its kind of like replacing a door that was in our way while making entry on a search warrant...........as a general rule we dont!!!! The dog was doing his job, no fault on the dog or the handler from what you posted. Tell him to take a number.

Picture_059_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

We have had this happen a couple times. The suspect comes and complains to the "brass" about the damages to his car. The first couple of times the "brass" came to us asking questions, but we finally got them schooled on it. My dog is trained to alert and indicate on the presence of the odor of narcotics. If my dog alerted and scratched your car, then you either had drugs and we didnt find them, or you had them earlier or whatever. Tough crap! Usually if you dont find any drugs, you can talk to the suspect and ask him, "Look my dog is alerting to your car, why?" Usually you can get them to admit that they smoked weed earlier in the day or whatever...Bingo!

Now our brass usually just tells them to go jump in a lake........

Hobbs_kc3_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

sgtroush said:

My dog is passive alert for that reason.

Same with mine....passive alert!

Img_1129_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

We have both passive and aggressive alert drug dogs with U.S. Customs and Border Protection. Too bad so sad if you have weed or other narcotics. Our zero torlerance level is upheld in the courts as well, so for one pot seed, we can seize your car, arrest and fine you for having it. Now will it happen in reality? Not too often these days due to the high priority being put on anti-terrorism over drugs. However, I miss and loved the old days pre 9/11 when we as legacy U.S. Customs were nothing but drug hunters.

I work a passive drug dog, and she is dialed in for work and work only. Not much in the way of an ambient personality with other people. Just work work work.

100_2704_max50

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Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

My malie is trained to passive alert and like cbpk9 he is all work.

Rh6large_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

passive alerts require less energy out put for the dog, they are safe for the dog(exposure to chemicals and or drugs that might harm him), cheaper on the wallet(you story is a good example) and it can pin point the exact location of the items being located( under the dash, in the ashtray, on the ground and high hides. i also think passive alert teaches to read you dog better, you tend to pay more attention to his head and breathing.

Th_germanshepard_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

Over the past several years, we've conducted over 25,000 vehicle sniffs. We've had hundreds of finds and have seized a considerable number of vehicles. We've paid two claims for damages by the dog. It's just a cost of doing business.

DFrost


Beyond fatigue lies compensatory hypertrophy

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

I ran a passive indicator for that very reason. With an aggressive indicator you're good to go if you find drugs or the bad guy admits to using, etc. But if not, a false indication may get pricey. The down side of a passive dog is the handler really has to be dialed into the dog and know what's in his head.

Th_germanshepard_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

jcadwalader said:

I ran a passive indicator for that very reason. With an aggressive indicator you're good to go if you find drugs or the bad guy admits to using, etc. But if not, a false indication may get pricey. The down side of a passive dog is the handler really has to be dialed into the dog and know what's in his head.

Why would a handler have to be more intune with a passive dog than an aggressive responding dog. Trained properly, the dog will go to source and give an indication. The only difference should be the manner is which the dog responds. We have both passive and aggressive response drug dogs. Of course all EDD's are passive (we have 11). The training is the same with the only difference being the aforementioned response.

DFrost


Beyond fatigue lies compensatory hypertrophy

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

Ive conducted many drug sniifs and my dog would rip,dig, bite etc. when indicating. He once ripped the whole dashboard out of an old lincoln continental with a hidden compartment behind the dash. It was great watching him pull this dashboard out of the car door so he could go back in and continue the search. The look on the offender's face was worth the price of any lawsuit and I would have paid that one myself just for the kicks of watchin' my boy do his thing! Of course there were narcotics in the compartment so mute point. Complaints are part of the job and Ive never, nor has the dept., been sued for the damage. If I was, then as jimroc says" get in line".
False indications do happen, but thats why you address that issue in training, and get your dog to the level where it would be rare or nonexistent. God, I just hate reading the constant threads where officers are afraid of lawsuits and they let that stand in the way of doing the job. Be confident in your skills, if not, train,train,train! The lawsuits will come and go, but it shouldnt polarize you into inaction. If so, time to move on to another profession!

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

You are correct Frost, as a handler you should be intune with your k-9 partner no matter the indication (passive vs agressive).We only run agressive dogs, as Ive seen the passive ones become passive in protection and building search's also. Its the classic argument: Bark and hold verses bite and hold. Ill take the biter every time. I want that dog aggressive when he's saving my ass. Training is the key as with everything we do, no matter the topic.

Th_germanshepard_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

I know it changes course in this discussion, I'm well known for my stance on bark/hold v. bite/hold. I refuse to train bark/hold. It's nothing more than an intrusion from the sport world. At any rate, that conversation gets my blood flowing quickly. I agree it all depends on training. The biggest mistakes I see in police canine is a lack of GOOD training. Oh sure many of them go out and put in their time, but fail to come up with realistic scenarios that atually test the dog's abilities. I tell all my handlers; You will never know how good your dog is until you find out what he can't do. As for responses for drug work, it's a preference thing mostly. Our dual purpose dog, I do train passive response to drug. I want them to respond aggressively in building search etc. I also agree with you relative law suits. Geez louise, do the job. Hell you're going to get sued anyway. In this job, as you well know, hesitation is not our friend.


I edited this post to correct a glaring error. (I really hate getting old). In the post originally, I stated "I refuse to train bite/hold" (that error was edited). I was truly embarrassed when I reread my post.  I do not train Bark/hold. I think it's serious breach of safety for an officer. For those that are concerned about lawsuits, a study was conducted that indicates there are more unintentional dog bites using bark and hold than those that train using bite/hold. The study can be found on the USPCA website. I'm not sure if Mr. Fleck has a link to that study on his fine website, but he might have. The liability does not concern me. As a trainer, the safety of any Trooper that uses one of my dogs is my PRIMARY concern.


 


DFrost


 


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Basco-22_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

My dog is passive.

I don't even want to think about the problems involved with having an aggressive alert and not finding anything.

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

DFrost said:


jcadwalader said:


I ran a passive indicator for that very reason. With an aggressive indicator you're good to go if you find drugs or the bad guy admits to using, etc. But if not, a false indication may get pricey. The down side of a passive dog is the handler really has to be dialed into the dog and know what's in his head.


Why would a handler have to be more intune with a passive dog than an aggressive responding dog. Trained properly, the dog will go to source and give an indication. The only difference should be the manner is which the dog responds. We have both passive and aggressive response drug dogs. Of course all EDD's are passive (we have 11). The training is the same with the only difference being the aforementioned response.

DFrost


Having run both dogs, an aggressive indicating dog often is much easier to see a clear indication; particularly for confined spaces, lots of noise or distraction, etc. There are times the passive dog is giving you the "just noticable difference" and I believe you have to be much more dialed into the dog's behavior and mannerisms to tell when he's not giving you such a clear indication as he would if he was an aggressive indicating dog. Just my opinion obviously, but having experience with both I felt I had to be much more dialed into the passive dog.

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

DFrost says ...


I know it changes course in this discussion, I'm well known for my stance on bark/hold v. bite/hold. I refuse to train bite/hold. It's nothing more than an intrusion from the sport world. At any rate, that conversation gets my blood flowing quickly. I agree it all depends on training. The biggest mistakes I see in police canine is a lack of GOOD training. Oh sure many of them go out and put in their time, but fail to come up with realistic scenarios that atually test the dog's abilities. I tell all my handlers; You will never know how good your dog is until you find out what he can't do. As for responses for drug work, it's a preference thing mostly. Our dual purpose dog, I do train passive response to drug. I want them to respond aggressively in building search etc. I also agree with you relative law suits. Geez louise, do the job. Hell you're going to get sued anyway. In this job, as you well know, hesitation is not our friend.

Everyone has their preferences, and I'll respect yours. I dont agree on the "intrusion from the sports world" analogy, but hey, we dont agree. The most important agreement we share is the importance of training,GOOD TRAINING! Ive seen those that just go through the motions in order to put in their time. These are the same officer's Ive seen take shortcuts in most things they do.They are the first to "go to sh*&  when the bell tolls in real time. Training for the sake of training is bulls%^&! Training in order to become more profficient is real training, enough said. The lawsuit topic is my biggest pet peeve and Im glad to see we share similar views. Kudo's to you.

Th_germanshepard_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

jcadwalader says ...



DFrost said:



jcadwalader said:



I ran a passive indicator for that very reason. With an aggressive indicator you're good to go if you find drugs or the bad guy admits to using, etc. But if not, a false indication may get pricey. The down side of a passive dog is the handler really has to be dialed into the dog and know what's in his head.



Why would a handler have to be more intune with a passive dog than an aggressive responding dog. Trained properly, the dog will go to source and give an indication. The only difference should be the manner is which the dog responds. We have both passive and aggressive response drug dogs. Of course all EDD's are passive (we have 11). The training is the same with the only difference being the aforementioned response. DFrost


Having run both dogs, an aggressive indicating dog often is much easier to see a clear indication; particularly for confined spaces, lots of noise or distraction, etc. There are times the passive dog is giving you the "just noticable difference" and I believe you have to be much more dialed into the dog's behavior and mannerisms to tell when he's not giving you such a clear indication as he would if he was an aggressive indicating dog. Just my opinion obviously, but having experience with both I felt I had to be much more dialed into the passive dog.

I understand what you are saying, we'll just agree to disagree. A dog sitting is a pretty clear indication, I don't see how that can be missed.  I currently have 30+ drug detectors working, 10 or so of those are passive response, plus 11 explosives detectors. It's pretty easy to see when they are sitting(passive), or scratching, biting, attempting to retrieve (aggressive).


Beyond fatigue lies compensatory hypertrophy

Th_germanshepard_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

LT it's good to be able to agree to disagree. I did want to point out one significant mistake I made in a previous post. I do NOT train bark/hold. That is what I believe is an intrusion of sport into the police working dog arena. In a previous post I stated I refused to train bite/hold, I've corrected that. Sometimes my fingers are not in concert with my brain, that was one of the times. I currently have a class of 5 patrol dogs in session. They are due to graduate in late June, they, like all the others I train are purely; find/bite, bite and hold dogs. It's the Trooper's responsibility to deploy the dog correctly. Our philosophy is; an accidental dog bite should occur no more frequently than an accidental discharge.


 


DFrost


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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

LTFrank, if you do not think the bark and hold came from the sport arena, where do you think it came from? 


Jeff Turner
K9 Solutions Center
SBPD Increased Criminal Enforcement Unit - K9
American Working Dog Council - President

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

DFROST,


I understand the correction and it takes a good man to admit a mistake. I now have a new perspective in which to view your posts,lol. See we agreee more than we disagree. I too, type too fast and outrace my thoguhts sometimes.Thats the trouble with aging I guess (me not you)


K9Gunner, if you read DFROST's  earlier post, you would have seen that he has made a correction to his  post where he stated that "bite and hold" was an intrusion from the sports arena,  not bark and hold and thats where I differed with him. Come on my man, read first, digest, then comment.


Good boy!! ( dog reference for humor only)

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

DFrost says ...



LT it's good to be able to agree to disagree. I did want to point out one significant mistake I made in a previous post. I do NOT train bark/hold. That is what I believe is an intrusion of sport into the police working dog arena. In a previous post I stated I refused to train bite/hold, I've corrected that. Sometimes my fingers are not in concert with my brain, that was one of the times. I currently have a class of 5 patrol dogs in session. They are due to graduate in late June, they, like all the others I train are purely; find/bite, bite and hold dogs. It's the Trooper's responsibility to deploy the dog correctly. Our philosophy is; an accidental dog bite should occur no more frequently than an accidental discharge.


 


DFrost, Cant agree with you more . It is the handlers sole responsibility in controling the actions of his dog. Your philosophy is spot on!


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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

BP348 says ...


My dog is passive. I don't even want to think about the problems involved with having an aggressive alert and not finding anything.

MEOWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

DFrost says ...



LT it's good to be able to agree to disagree. I did want to point out one significant mistake I made in a previous post. I do NOT train bark/hold. That is what I believe is an intrusion of sport into the police working dog arena. In a previous post I stated I refused to train bite/hold, I've corrected that. Our philosophy is; an accidental dog bite should occur no more frequently than an accidental discharge.


 


DFrost



Ok, lets back up here Franko....  First of all, I know where David is coming from. I have known him for years and I think we have had this discussion in person, so let me help make it clear to you.  Bark and Hold came from sport, ScHz.  He, and I, only train bite and hold.   Is that broken down enough for you to digest?  


Jeff Turner
K9 Solutions Center
SBPD Increased Criminal Enforcement Unit - K9
American Working Dog Council - President

Th_germanshepard_max50

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Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

Hey Gunner, good to see you. Before this gets too complicated, let me do my mea culpa. In an earlier post, when I spoke of the infiltration of sport into the police world, I did type bite and hold was the infiltration. Obviously, that was a mistake. I know what my mind was saying but my fingers took on a life of their own for a minute. LT, rightfully so, said that was not an infiltration of sport, and of course he was correct. I meant to say; bark and hold was an infiltration of sport. After I read my original post again, I saw the glaring error and thought to myself, that was pretty stupid, I've never trained b/h in my life. I've changed it to read what is shoul have read in the first place. Aliens haven't taken over what little brain I have left. ha ha.


Anyway, from what I understand now, and once I made my correction, LT agrees with that part of the discussion. I'm sure my earlier mistake confused him as well. He was probably trying to figure out how in the world I felt bite and hold was sport infiltration. at any rate, I'll blame my fingers for the confusion, my will is still strong on my belief of bite/hold v. bark/hold.


Hope all's well in your world. I've been busier than a cat cover three litter boxes.


 


DFrost


 


Beyond fatigue lies compensatory hypertrophy

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