Off Duty Forums >> Cops in the War on Terror >> Military vets post in - I wanna hear *your* feedback on this

Rate

Military vets post in - I wanna hear *your* feedback on this

926 Views
38 Replies Flag as inappropriate
Irresponsibility_max50

362 posts

back to top

Posted about 7 years ago

 

U.S. snipers accused of 'baiting' Iraqis By PAULINE JELINEK and ROBERT BURNS, Associated Press Writers
31 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Army snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to "bait" their targets with suspicious materials, such as detonation cords, and then kill whoever picked up the items, according to the defense attorney for a soldier accused of planting evidence on an Iraqi he killed. Gary Myers, an attorney for Sgt. Evan Vela, said his client had acted "pursuant to orders."

ADVERTISEMENT

"We believe that our client has done nothing more than he was instructed to do by superiors," Myers said in a telephone interview.

Myers and Vela's father, Curtis Carnahan of Idaho Falls, Idaho, said in separate interviews that sworn statements and testimony in the cases of two other accused Ranger snipers indicate that the Army has a classified program that encourages snipers to "bait" potential targets and then kill whoever takes the bait.

The Army on Monday declined to confirm such a program exists.

"To prevent the enemy from learning about our tactics, techniques and training procedures, we don't discuss specific methods targeting enemy combatants," said Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman.

Boyce also said there are no classified programs that authorize the murder of Iraqi civilians or the use of "drop weapons" to make killings appeared to be legally justified, which is what Vela and the two other snipers are accused of doing.

The transcript of a court hearing for two of the three accused snipers makes several references to the existence of a classified "baiting" program but provides few details of how it works. A copy of the transcript was provided to The Associated Press by Vela's father.

The Washington Post, which first reported the existence of the "baiting" program, cited the sworn statement of Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of a Ranger sniper scout platoon.

"Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Didier said in the statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. forces."

The Post said the program was devised by the Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, which advises commanders on more effective methods in today's unconventional conflicts, including ways to combat roadside bombs.

Within months of the "baiting" program's introduction, three snipers in Didier's platoon were charged with murder for allegedly using those items and others to make shootings seem legitimate, according to the Post.

The Post said that although it doesn't appear that the three alleged shootings were specifically part of the classified program, defense attorneys argue that the program may have encouraged them by blurring the legal lines in a complex war zone.

The court martial of one of the accused soldiers, Spec. Jorge Sandoval Jr., is scheduled to begin in Baghdad on Wednesday. Also facing premeditated murder charges are Vela and Staff Sgt. Michael Hensley.

They are part of the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, based at Fort Richardson, Alaska.

Irresponsibility_max50

362 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

In my opinion, this sounds like a story about regulating *HOW* we kill our enemies !! Why is it such a big deal how we kill our enemies, as long as we're killing them before they kill us?? There's no torture here, no degredation, no offense to human dignity, just a clever trap followed by hot lead and a trip to meet Allah - where's the hang-up????

Policelinkbadge_max160_max160_max50

1552 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Some people in this country just do not want us to win this or any other war. A friend of mine, a decorated combat veteran of WWII, Korea, and Nam, and many Special Forces campaigns in between, told me recently that if CNN was in business during WWII, we would have lost terribly. There was not a single church steeple standing at the end of the war because our enemies used them as sniper towers. I would like to hear from some Iraq vets who know what the real deal is.

2012-10-14_15-49-09_546_max50

1382 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

What's the big deal? We rolled up and down routes escorting convoys, prisoners, and just on patrol and were hit repeatedly with IEDs that gave no warning, yet somone wants to slam us for "baiting" the badguys. I've been there twice and I can tell you from experience that the honest people in that country would not walk up and pick something up that looks like a det cord or anything related to an explosive. The terrorists are baiting us and already fight a dirty war with IEDs, so I see no problem in blowin them away when they come out of their hiding spots and pick up what they think is something that they can use on my brother and sister soldiers later.

Piper_icon_max50

155 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

*Army snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to “bait” their targets with suspicious materials, such as detonation cords,*

Other sources claim to have been baiting with trip wires connected to large amounts of boom boom. Thankfully, upon picking up this "suspicious material", all that was left for the sniper to snipe was a steaming crater.

-120 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

ANOTHER SINE OF THE GOVERMENT JUST DON,T CARE,. NOW I HAVE NOT BEEN TO THE SAND BOX"YET" HOWEVER WHEN I DO GO "I,M GOING TO DO WHAT I HAVE TO DO TO COME BACK HOME TO MY FAMILY" I WAS PART OF OPERATION JUMP START AND I MET SOME REAL GOOD U.S. BORDER PATROL AGENTS,. THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING,.HOWEVER I DON,T UNDERSTAND WHY THEY CAN,T CARRY A BACKUP AND WHY THEY JUST GAVE US VERY LITTLE AMMO FOR OUR PROTECTION WHAT HAPPEND TO THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS DON,T WE DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION,.GOD BLESS ALL MY BROTHERS&SISTERS IN HARMS WAY AND PLEASE KNOW YOUR RIGHTS AND STICK TO THEM,. WE CAT NOT KEEP LETTING THE SYSTEM TAKE AWAY FROM US WHAT WE HAVE TO DEFEND,.PS DID ANY BODY HERE ABOUT SOME ARMY NATIONAL GUARD SOLDIERS BEING DEPLOYED TO KATRINA WITHOUT AMMO JUST M-16S? I DID! I REST MY CASE! MUCH LOVE TO ALL!

Dsc00862_max50

172 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

"Myers and Vela’s father, Curtis Carnahan of Idaho Falls, Idaho, said in separate interviews that sworn statements and testimony in the cases of two other accused Ranger snipers indicate that the Army has a CLASSIFIED PROGRAM that encourages snipers to “bait” potential targets and then kill whoever takes the bait.

The Army on Monday declined to confirm such a program exists."

the snipers stated in separate interviews that the army has a CLASSIFIED PROGRAM... did the press really think that the army would confirm that program exists? does the press understand what "classified" means?

Policelinkbadge_max160_max160_max50

1552 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

The only thing that the majority of the press understands is that we must NOT win this war!

-1019 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

If the bait works, we catch a rat, kill it and our guys are safe then GO FOR IT! These writers are just looking to sell papers. It's the same shit we went through in Nam! I say just shoot the bastards.

Mirror_in_unifrm_max50

407 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

just another way the liberal government is trying to make the war look bad for the conservatives and make them stand out. The liberals stand out for sure, just like the idiots they are. If the terrorist dont follow a rule of engagement then why should we....... kill em all.

-1019 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

I apologize for my earlier response, that was the BAD Henry talking. I don't want to upset the "liberal" writers out there. You're right, we shouldn't kill the terrorists. We should allow all the open-minded journalists to "ADOPT A TERRORIST", bring them home with you and teach them the error of their ways. I'm sure that will work much better than blowing their heads off! GIVE-ME-A-BREAK!

Mirror_in_unifrm_max50

407 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

hkaden said:

I apologize for my earlier response, that was the BAD Henry talking. I don't want to upset the "liberal" writers out there. You're right, we shouldn't kill the terrorists. We should allow all the open-minded journalists to "ADOPT A TERRORIST", bring them home with you and teach them the error of their ways. I'm sure that will work much better than blowing their heads off! GIVE-ME-A-BREAK!

Hey that is a good idea for the liberals. Lets start a program for them and see if we can get any of them to sign up.

Irresponsibility_max50

362 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Can we also adopt a partnering program as well, where terrorists can "Adopt-a-Liberal" and take *them* back to their peaceful enclaves, to welcome them as peaceful dissidents and join hands as freedom-fighters to work together in harmony against oppressive regimes like the United States of America ?? I'd get behind a program like that !!

Photo_user_banned_big

262 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

As a six time deployed, multi war infantry combat vet, Yup, politics is a killer!!! Today in Iraq, as I sit here in Al AnBar Province, I do not believe we need to bait. I think this is a misguided program 100%. In my experience in dealing with people in the middle east who have nothing, they will pick up anything that they might in turn use to sell for money or food. The Iraqi economy is not exactly booming. Believe me when I say this, I have no moral or ethical issues if we were allowed to just line them up and shoot every damn one of these people. I am glad we are restricted in the use of force here because I truly hate these people. To get into the frame of mind to kill them at any point and time, you have to demonize them, make them less human. During the invasion, I came to understand "TRUE POWER" in that, I could decide who lived or died. I only merely said kill that one, shoot them etc...and I had 15 men who did what I said, no questions asked or hesitation in carrying out those ordes.
I came to understand or at least assimilate with how, as per my perception, NAZI's might have felt toward Jews, as I've meet several while in Germany. Kill them all, they are the root of all evil etc...and then add the fact that they do not normally stand and fight like we do, or how our culture perceives honorable fighting should be conducted. How shall I say, like an old western shootout in a bar or on the street, two men calling each other out. They hide and blow us up using unconventional warfare tactics which only demoralizes us and creates more hatred because we cannot see our enemy and take our anger, fear, pain, and frustration out on someone. It builds to a level of very deep discontent and when we find a "BAD GUY" or someone we think is bad, well, we eliminate that person as a representative of what we hate. Getting back on track, nope, don't think baiting is good at all. I do support killing bad guys, period. In America, Iraq, or where ever. Evil needs to be fought on a daily basis everywhere. A couple years ago over here, Snipers would kill an insurgent and then wait for his fellow insurgents to show up and recover the body as they have to be buried by sundown under Islamic law or within 24hrs. So, we baited them in that, we then shot the recovery team so to speak. There were times when there were a pile of bodies literally piled up and more insurgents showing up to attempt a recovery. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. Was that right? I don't know but I do know, as I get older and mature, I realize the breadth of some of the things I've seen and done, myself as well as many others, we have to live with what we did for the rest of their lives. Whether in the name of freedom, defense, duty, or whatever. It is with you always and sometimes, what you have done comes up and out in ways when it is least expected and wanted. What is there to say??? Taking another's life is a tremendous responsibility, PERIOD!!! I try to shield my younger soldiers from having to do that, if I can because they will lose whatever innocence they have. I know they joined for adventure and many to see what it feels like to kill etc...and I try to explain to them it's not all that, it's a burdon to bare that I wish no man to have to carry but someone does.
I look at Iraq the same way I did some of the public housing area's I patrolled as a cop. It's filthy, an eye sore, uneducated people, them against us, close knit, daily life struggle just to live, eat, sleep, etc...different languages and cultures. I grew up middle class white, what the hell did I know about living in the "HOOD!" It was and continues to be today, an education for me. Iraq is the smae way, just in a different place. I have meet and made great friends here. Some have been tortured and killed for cooperating or had their familes killed in retaliation. There is no right answer but the number of bad guys continues to drop. So, how can we justify baiting as a tactic when the actual numbers of real bad guys is down. Also, many of you might not know this but, under Iraqi law, FOR EVERY ADULT WHO LIVES IN A HOUSE, THEY CAN HAVE ONE FIREARM. Meaning, if five adult males (father/sons) and three adult women (mom/one wife/one daughter) all live in the same house, they can have eight (8) AK-47s with one fully loaded magazine per weapon. So, who is to say that finding an AK-47 on the street is not going to be used for home defense as part of a family's right to bear arms? The AKs are expensive and Free is always better than paying and this culture is geared toward scavengering, picking up every damn thing and finding a use for it. So, again, in opinion, SNIPER BAITING=bad program today, given the current political arena.

Dsc00269_max50

4 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

No matter what we do it's wrong. The media will do anything to give us a negative image anywhere we are. Even in the movie "Shooter" camp lemonier is a humanitarian camp not a spec ops camp.

041105-o-9999g-012_max50

487 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

"baiting" to draw in targets is unecessary. The media will always make a big story out of anything negative. The media avoids stories on the good things we are doing and the improvements the Iraqis have made, just to tell a negative story.

196879_210462298979969_191341617558704_846890_5763658_n_max50

1492 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

this is an ambush on a smaller scale.. you draw your adversary in range, where he feels safe, then you spring the ambush, and kill without mercy.. this is small scale ambushes, because in an enviroment such as iraq,especially in the cities, you cannot ambush for all the civilians around.. so a baiting them and picking them off does not affect my concience.. if an innocent civilian gets killed, it is unfortunate, but eventually, they will catch on, and stop picking sh*t up off the street and the only people picking up stuff will be insurgents..


I want to find the driver(s) at the front of the traffic jam and have their license(s) revoked. Then make them ride the bus until they promise never to hold the rest of us up again.

140696_max600_2_max50

56 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

Hmmm.....don't we as police officers "bait" drug dealers in stings, and if they get themselves killed by doing something "stupid" in the process of the operation...well, so be it, one less bad guy, I'm all for it. Let’s not call it an "Ambush" either, let’s call it "A conservative way to narrow down the number of enemy combatants through the use of a higher intelligent fighting technique".

Photo_user_banned_big

48 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

I have mixed thoughts about this. One one hand kill em all. On the other what if the person picking the thing up is innocent. What would you do if you saw a spool of det cord, id pick it up and go have some fun.

Acoin_max50

1 post

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

Hooray for the political activist and echelon that want to pass the buck to the troop who acts on orders, give them a mission and then turn around and deny any knowledge of the actions. My philosphy is what happens in vegas should stay in vegas, and so it should apply to the combat zone without question from the public, Yes we all want the war to end and those who have served understand some times you do what you gotta do. War is just that war and the general public can't even begin to conceive the reality of what it is like, fictionalized by media such as movies and television shows, it is all howdy doody time until they are slapped in the face with reality and what has to be done. Keep the information out of public view and on the battle field where it belongs, It is hard enough to rationalize war when faced with it, but then to be faced with possible legal charges or ridicule by those who have not served or deny knowledge of mission directives. We all know that soldiers are given orders and must comply or face cout marshal for disobeying a direct order, I my self served in Desert Storm but yet amazingly there is no record of my unit being deployed, Hell my DD214 was hand written, I was a recovery specialist with D702nd with orders to complete several missions that are deniable by those who verbally gave me my orders. I do have a photo album so I know I was there and do I want to express one of my missions no! Why? because it could cost me a legal suit but without a doubt ridicule by civilians for complying. A neccessary action is justified by the situation in which a soldier must act in accordance to the mission, weighing the severity of the task in proportion to the outcome often is not a mathematical eqaution with a definite solution of defined variables. This Delta Deuce says Hoooah! let them boys do what they have to do to get there butts home, If not for the value in marketing news using the war for finacnial gain to the corporate money mungers. The public would be kept in the dark right where they should be considering a civilian has never served and does not know the aspect of coming home after having to rationalize what a soldier must experience when deployed!

Dsc00808_max50

13 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

ITS ABOUT TIME WE WENT ON THE OFFENSIVE AND BAITED, LURED, SETUP, DID SOMETHING BESIDES BEING IED BAIT GOOD JOB RANGERS!!! OH AND NICE SHOT. Its ashame there is rules of engaugement when we are the only ones using the rules. Iraq Afghanistan and everyplacce i have been in the middle east the people are corrupt dishonest nasty...basiclly the worst of the worst. this one base i went to the locals confined and raped a dog so much that they had shoot it do to the HUMAN V.D. it caught from the army we were training...how is that for a peaceful, modren, religion. we are dealing with cavemen...more baiting all around

Dont_tread_on_me_max50

428 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

The hajji's do the same thing, and have done the same thing since they started learning or routines. That is how they continue getting us. While I was over, we were regulated in what we could do. Even when things would go down, they would send the Air Force (no offence) out instead of my Infantry unit. Whenever we would call in to engage the enemy who we observed doing things they shouldn't we were denied because aparently setting an IED isn't enough justification to take care of them. I know it wasn't the same everywhere but down in the Basrah province this was a common occurance...


Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Avatar_max50

35 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

Speaking of baiting, my favorite tactic was the one used by a unit in Iraq (known as the AK-monkey-pumping smackdown). It is expained here by journalist Michael Yon. If you have never read his blog, you are missing out on one of the best first-person accounts of the war. He has been called the "Ernie Pyle" of the War on Terror. You can find his blogs at http://www.michaelyon-online.com/. He started the story with how when an IED would detonate and destroy a US vehicle, once the soldiers left, people would flood the streets, cheering, dancing, and shooting their AK-47s into the air. This, of course, would be filmed and make it appear that the insurgents are in control of the city.

"Deuce Four is an overwhelmingly aggressive and effective unit, and they believe the best defense is a dead enemy. They are constantly thinking up innovative, unique, and effective ways to kill or capture the enemy; proactive not reactive. They planned an operation with snipers, making it appear that an ISF vehicle had been attacked, complete with explosives and flash-bang grenades to simulate the IED. The simulated casualty evacuation of sand dummies completed the ruse. The Deuce Four soldiers left quickly with the “casualties,” “abandoning” the burning truck in the traffic circle. The enemy took the bait. Terrorists came out and started with the AK-rifle-monkey-pump, shooting into the truck, their own video crews capturing the moment of glory. That’s when the American snipers opened fire and killed everybody with a weapon. Until now, only insiders knew about the AK-monkey-pumpers smack-down."

Soccertaz_max50

177 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted almost 7 years ago

 

The rules of engagement do not count imo. They wear no uniform and fight a dirty war. There is no respect for their enemy. Even enemies in war show respect for their foe.

The Rules of engagement were written by politicians for politicians. Every raghead who carries a weapon is a legitimate target, whichever way viewed.


Utrinque Paratus

-643 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

chicken89 said:

"Myers and Vela’s father, Curtis Carnahan of Idaho Falls, Idaho, said in separate interviews that sworn statements and testimony in the cases of two other accused Ranger snipers indicate that the Army has a CLASSIFIED PROGRAM that encourages snipers to “bait” potential targets and then kill whoever takes the bait.

The Army on Monday declined to confirm such a program exists."

the snipers stated in separate interviews that the army has a CLASSIFIED PROGRAM... did the press really think that the army would confirm that program exists? does the press understand what "classified" means?

"Classified means NOTHING. The job section in your local newspaper is the Classifieds!

It's CONFIDENTIAL!

Classified is a term that the stupid, liberal, idiotic media loves to use.

Proofoflife_max50

5 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

Nothing more than the product of well-contemplated psychological warfare using the media to further the definition of terrorism by a well versed collaborator, most likely a typical leftist American or someone we allowed to exploit liberal immigration laws who lives right next door. This is nothing new, I remember the 1960s and 70s quite well. It worked quite well because they successfully de-clawed the intelligence community, created a passion for appeasement not seen since Joe Kennedy, which is why the road to 9/11 was so productive, and why they are about to throw a Presidential election that will give the enemy exactly what it wants, a neutralized America.

Proofoflife_max50

5 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

Nothing more than the product of well-contemplated psychological warfare using the media to further the definition of terrorism by a well versed collaborator, most likely a typical leftist American or someone we allowed to exploit liberal immigration laws who lives right next door. This is nothing new, I remember the 1960s and 70s quite well. It worked quite well because they successfully de-clawed the intelligence community, created a passion for appeasement not seen since Joe Kennedy, which is why the road to 9/11 was so productive, and why they are about to throw a Presidential election that will give the enemy exactly what it wants, a neutralized America.

Robertmitchum_max50

6467 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

Next they will want to stop cops from using "bait cars" and "Baiting drug dealers"....... SAD>>>>>>>>>>>> very sad...


For so long as one hundred men remain alive, we shall never under any conditions submit to the domination of the English. It is not for glory or riches or honours that we fight, but only for liberty, which no good man will consent to lose but with his life.

The Declaration of Arbroath, 1320

SCREW TIBET FREE SCOTLAND !!!!

Cot_max50

3423 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

i read the first line and that was more than enough. its the friggin MEDIA....what else do you expect


MODERATOR #7

-1292 posts

back to top
Rate

Rate This | Posted over 6 years ago

 

DAMN!!!!! What the heck is up with this liberal crap. Atrocities happen in war. In every war ever fought man's inhumanity to man has been present. Didn't these damn liberals learn anything from Viet Nam. First the French got their butts kicked due to the lack of ability to understand the hit and run tactics. Aren't these the very same tactics used by our forefathers against the British. In the Nam how many remember the children that were used as IEDs? Little one walks up and BOOM a squad is wiped out. WHO was the enemy? Not the kids but they were definatelly a threat. Maybe it is an innocent picking up the det chord but you can bet your backside that the det chord is going to end up being used by Hadji. Desperate people do desperate things to keep alive. When any of these liberals can come up with a viable solution to operating in a manner that differentiates the innocent from the enemy in a war zone then maybe just maybe we could do it their way.

It's pure BS the way the damn Liberals want to fight these wars. Make up rules that our troops HAVE to follow or face criminal charges. But it's ok if the enemy doesn't follow these rules and our troops die or worse yet come home with injuries that prevent them from living life as you do. Then look at the reality of what is being done when they do get home. Hell tell me can you live as a healthy person on what they have to fight sometimes years for from the VA. Most of them get the disability rating sure , but what have they lost by the time they get it. Their homes ,families, dignity etc. What the hell good is the disability then?

How about the fact that there is no more draft but those willingly entering the service of their country serve their time and because of the commitment they made when the signed the contract and already having served their active time are recalled to active duty. how about the reserves who have served 2-3 tours already, sacrificed years away from their families and are recalled? How about the flag draped coffins of our young men and women that come home to the crap going on in this country like the incident in Berkley? Which by the way is not the only place such incidents have taken place. How about the embittered leaders of our young men who have spent 3-4 or more tours in the sand box and watched their men die needlessly. Their hands tied by the "rules that are made by liberal politicians in their over stuffed chairs behind the walls that these men protect.

I could go on and on but what good does it do for our service men and women? My personal opinion, we were sent there to kick some ass. Don't tell us how to do it just be glad that we are.

Semper Fi to all my bothers and sisters -in-arms. Get some for us old dawgs for we are behind you. Thank you for your service, dedication and loyalty. You know what these things are. DO YOU LIBERALS?

An Old Marine

Next Page >