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Passive vs Aggressive

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Posted about 6 years ago

 

 I have the basic knowlegde  of passive vs aggressive indications.  We just got our first passive dog this summer. I was wanting other opinoins and experience on what type of dog will pin point the odor better, and what type of dog will read the handle and indicate off of the handle. Or are these just training issued that I bring up?

Th_germanshepard_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

Depends on how you are using your dog. First, as far as proficiency goes, there shouldn't be a tenth of a percent difference. Odor is odor and a response is a response.  As for pinpointing the odor. I don't know how you will be using your dog so let's look as why a dog responds. Properly trained, a detector dog will respond when it is at "source". What is source; defined, source is the strongest point of odor that the dog can physically get too. Ok, so you have a vehicle stopped on the side of the road. You ask for consent, the driver says no. You run the dog on the outside of the vehicle. The dog responds to the (pick a door). The drugs are in a suitcase in the backseat. What difference does it make whether the dog is passive or aggressive. He can't get any closer than the door to give the response. You're conducting a search inside a residence after a warrant was served. The dog is searching a room and the drugs are in the top dresser drawer. The passive dog will raise up, stick his nose in close proximity, sit and look at where the source of the odor is coming from. The aggressive dog will scratch, bite etc, in the location. Both dogs have given an indication as close to the source of the odor as possible. Same situation but the drugs are on a shelf 8 feet high, in a closet. The passive dog will raise up as high as he can, when he's determined he is as close to the source of the odor as he can physically get, he'll sit. The aggressive dog will do the same thing only he has to find a place to scratch. Neither of them can pinpoint the odor at that heigth, they can only give the response as close to source. Training those types of situations, over and over again will prepare the dog handler to be able to give at worst a general area, at best, an exact location of the target.


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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

I agee with DFROST. My K9 is an aggressive alert but the department that we train with has all passive alert k9's. I have found that when we train on areas that have hides that are high up it appeares to be harder for my k9 because he can't scratch on the area. I have found that if you watch you will notice a difference in an agressive dog when trying to alert on a high hide. My K9's mouth will close and he will stare in the area of the hide. I have learned that in these situations this is the way he alerts. I have seen him in a residence jump up on a kitchen counter to try and get to the upper cabinet to try and scratch on the area.

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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

Have you guys seen what type of dog will give an indication or alert by reading the handler. example. in training you have your  dog on a line detailing him. the handler knows where the hide is and will stop when getting to the hide.  The dog recognizes the handle had stopped, and now indicates with out sniffing for the odor? Does this make sense?

Th_germanshepard_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

KelsoK3 says ...



Have you guys seen what type of dog will give an indication or alert by reading the handler. example. in training you have your  dog on a line detailing him. the handler knows where the hide is and will stop when getting to the hide.  The dog recognizes the handle had stopped, and now indicates with out sniffing for the odor? Does this make sense?



 


 


 


Yes, it makes sense. It's caused because the handler knows where the targets are. It's a bad practice when working with a trained dog. The only time I allow my handlers to know where the target is located is if we are working on a specific behavior problem. It's not good training to know where the targets are located. The dog easily picks up on the handler cues. No matter how hard the handler may try to not change what he's doing, subconsciously they will.  It's also a problem that can be easily fixed, don't allow the handler to know. I have a  philosophy I share with all my handlers;  "You will never know how good your dog is until you find out what he can not do." Those handlers that conduct training easy so the dog never misses will never know just how good their dog is. Additionally, they will never really identify any problems the dog may have.  


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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

Thanks for the reply that helps.


Here's another one for you. What is your theory about human (handler) odor transfer to the odor in training? How do you guys handle the odor that is wanting to be taught? And do you keep the source of odor with you or the handlers so they may train in the field?


 


For us in Utah an "Alert" is a change in the dog the the handler or another handler will notice. An "Indication" is a change in the dog that everyone will notice. ie Bite Bark Scratch Sit or Down.

Th_germanshepard_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

Contamination can be a problem, but it's easy to test to see if indeed it is a problem. Training targets, when training should be as clean a possible. We, of course, want the dog finding the specific odor we are training for. If one were to use a drug that has been cut several times, you stand the chance of also teaching the dog to find the cutting agent. If the training aids are hidden by the same person all the time, you stand the risk of that persons odor also being part of the odor profile. The easy way to test for such a problem is; in the case of drugs, hide pure cutting agent. If the dog doesn't respond to it, it's not a problem. Have the person that hides the drugs, also hide an object, like his wallet. Make sure it's not contaminated with drug odor. If the dog doesn't hit the hidden item, then it's not a problem. We call them negative tests. Some call it "proofing". It's just a matter of taking those odors, other than the drug odors, hiding them, without the handler's knowledge, then running the dog. If the dog responds, you have a contamination problem. If the dog doesn't respond, you don't. We do the same thing on the more common masking agents as well. It's good to have them documented in your training records that the dog does NOT respond to these items. We also do the same thing with uncirculated currency to show the dog will NOT respond to money.


The discussion about indication, alert etc can be confusing when it comes to terminology. As far as behavioral science goes, it's a final response. (the observable behavior the dog is trained to give when finding the odor) A final response would be passive or aggressive. I know different programs call it different thngs. The only thing that really matters is; the dog gives the final response or alert or whatever, when encountering the odor.


 


 


 


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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

We call it proofing we do the same thing in our training. Its good to see that other poeple are hiding un-used money. That test is part of our certification.

Car_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

"Have you guys seen what type of dog will give an indication or alert by reading the handler. example. in training you have your  dog on a line detailing him. the handler knows where the hide is and will stop when getting to the hide.  The dog recognizes the handle had stopped, and now indicates with out sniffing for the odor? Does this make sense "


We call that setting the dog up.   One of the first things we teach is that the dog is a master of body language.  Handlers are not permitted to stop when conducting a search.  If the dog shows interest or appears to be "in odor"  you keep walking out the length of the lead and then you walk back but you never stop until the dog indicates and gets paid.  You just keep shuffling.  Especially with a passive indicator.  If they can get paid cheap they will.  I do believe that you have to know where the hide is with a green dog so you can learn to read your dogs behavior when they are in odor.  Each dogs behavior is different when they are "fringing"  (Head spin, breathing change, stutter step etc.)  Also if the handlers never know where the hide is, they can't correct their dog quickly when they false indicate, unless you know in advance it's a negative hide. 

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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

I try to have a different officer hide my training aids so I wont set the K-9 up for failure, I want to soley rely on the K-9 while we are seaching, I cant smell the odors. My K-9 will react differently if I'm stressed and then she will be stressed and not search well, but if i'm excited she is too and loves playing the game. Passive and active is difficult at times my K-9 may be diving under a vehicle and wont have an active alert in terms of scratching and you have to work a litte harder, some times it would be easier if she just sat down when she hits. But it is rewarding when you get a good hit and watch the K-9 go to town on a doppers rig.

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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

ic4sanders says ...



I try to have a different officer hide my training aids so I wont set the K-9 up for failure, I want to soley rely on the K-9 while we are seaching, I cant smell the odors. My K-9 will react differently if I'm stressed and then she will be stressed and not search well, but if i'm excited she is too and loves playing the game. Passive and active is difficult at times my K-9 may be diving under a vehicle and wont have an active alert in terms of scratching and you have to work a litte harder, some times it would be easier if she just sat down when she hits. But it is rewarding when you get a good hit and watch the K-9 go to town on a doppers rig.



 


Its funny you mention the dopers rig. My pup just hit the door handles to on the front passenger and driver side. We found Herion in there it was awsome.  What are you running and is she Passive or Arggrestive?

Th_germanshepard_max50

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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

The only good thing about hiding your own training aids is; it's better than no training at all. Beyond that, it's just bad practice.


 


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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

DFrost says ...



The only good thing about hiding your own training aids is; it's better than no training at all. Beyond that, it's just bad practice.


Do you allow your guys to train on duty?


If is slow i'll go put a hide or two out in some of your city offices or on a fleet vehicle in the parking lot. I'll try to stay back from my dog while he's working not wanting to tip him off where it is. For me it is easy to train dope because I dont need another person to decoy for me.


 


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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

They can train all they want on duty. They can not hide their own training aids. The handlers are allowed to use what we call a "reinforcment aid. They put it out, after the dog has conducted several contacts without a hit, let the dog hit and reward it. They are not allowd to document it as training.


 


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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

So the dogs search a room with no hides. Then the reinforcment aid is placed back into the same room?


Where or what is the reinforcment aid placed in or is it out in the open where the dog can see it?

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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

KelsoK3 says ...



So the dogs search a room with no hides. Then the reinforcment aid is placed back into the same room?


Where or what is the reinforcment aid placed in or is it out in the open where the dog can see it?


 


It's a combination of events. During training we conduct negative searches. That is searches where the dog will not find anything. Each training session is ended on a positive note. During actual work (most of our time is doing vehicles) a Trooper may stop and have the dog sniff 4 or 5 vehicles during a shift. If after the 3 or 4th vehicle the dog hasn't hit on anything, the handler might put a target on a vehicle and let the dog find it. It's never visible, but it's not all that difficult either. The objective is only to give the dog a positive response so he can be rewarded. In training we we also do varible reward schedules. Meaning the dog may not be given his primary reward (ball, tug etc) each time he responds. The dog learns; I may not get it this time, but I know I'll get it sometime. We do that because responses in actual situations are rewarded with verbal only. the dog is immediately put back into the vehicle. It then become an officer safety issue. A handler may do a "reinforcement" aid each shift or every other shift they will do it at some point. 



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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

DFrost says ...



KelsoK3 says ...



So the dogs search a room with no hides. Then the reinforcment aid is placed back into the same room?


Where or what is the reinforcment aid placed in or is it out in the open where the dog can see it?


 


It's a combination of events. During training we conduct negative searches. That is searches where the dog will not find anything. Each training session is ended on a positive note. During actual work (most of our time is doing vehicles) a Trooper may stop and have the dog sniff 4 or 5 vehicles during a shift. If after the 3 or 4th vehicle the dog hasn't hit on anything, the handler might put a target on a vehicle and let the dog find it. It's never visible, but it's not all that difficult either. The objective is only to give the dog a positive response so he can be rewarded. In training we we also do varible reward schedules. Meaning the dog may not be given his primary reward (ball, tug etc) each time he responds. The dog learns; I may not get it this time, but I know I'll get it sometime. We do that because responses in actual situations are rewarded with verbal only. the dog is immediately put back into the vehicle. It then become an officer safety issue. A handler may do a "reinforcement" aid each shift or every other shift they will do it at some point. 


Thanks. That makes sense to me.



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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

I personally am a huge fan of PASSIVE in both drugs and explosives, (I'm a primary EDDT guy) but I will train each dog team as the department of handler desires. I like passive as a liability reduction, but then again I also train each dog as a dual dog with handler protection and suspect apprehension as well :)


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Rate This | Posted about 6 years ago

 

Cujocop says ...



I personally am a huge fan of PASSIVE in both drugs and explosives, (I'm a primary EDDT guy) but I will train each dog team as the department of handler desires. I like passive as a liability reduction, but then again I also train each dog as a dual dog with handler protection and suspect apprehension as well :)



 


 


What do you think of ATF's Nort? If you are USPCA what do you think of their vote in September, to include ORT as part of the certification.


I think it sucks by the way.


 


Beyond fatigue lies compensatory hypertrophy