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Posted about 7 years ago

 

What would you as an LEO consider excessive force?

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

No such thing. Unreasonable force yes, excessive? Not hardly.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Excessive Force- Any force beyond what is required.

Unnecessary Force- The use of force when none is required.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

LieutenantDan said:

Excessive Force- Any force beyond what is required.

Unnecessary Force- The use of force when none is required.

You said it.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

LieutenantDan said:

Excessive Force- Any force beyond what is required.

Unnecessary Force- The use of force when none is required.

Have to agree with the LT. But again you can't always judge that. We have a split second to make a decission and we will do what we feel is right at the time to gain control of the situation. But it always seems like the people that get accused of this type of misconduct are the ones that are trying to do their jobs, and the ones that actually do use the excessive or unnecessary force are the one that never get in trouble.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

I often wonder how when I was a kid, up until the 70's, the words excessive force weren't even in our vocabulary. Once respect for the police and authority went out the window, these things became an issue. My take on it, an officer does what he has to do at the moment. Why should he have to think of the backlash when he is in a fight for his life?

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Ok I am not a LEO, just a person with something to say about everything lol...
.Wondering ??? .....
I understand act and react,,,,,,, and protecting a life (especially your own and your co workers),,
I have watched the media over the last year hammer Austin PD ,,with officer involved shootings, and of course picking and choosing according to the drama of the story.
It has left alot of people (general public) with 1/2 of a story and a bad taste in their mouth.,
(the officers side always tied up in internal investigations, therefore not reported in its entirety)
and of course due to air time,,, the special interests groups hop on the bandwagon.
Leaving our officers with a bad taste in their mouth ,,with reason.
Due to our freedom of speech (and sometimes lack of common sense ) is there a way to legally media cap these story's getting air time ????
At least until the internal investigations are done and the story is complete?

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Quote
We have a split second to make a decission and we will do what we feel is right at the time to gain control of the situation
End Quote

Shouldn't you use what you were trained to use in order to gain control in the split seconds? If I as a every day citizen did what I 'feel' is right in situations I would have a mess on my hands.
For instance~ when I was driving down the highway and a semi truck was in front of me,a guy in a little Aveo passed me and cut in between the truck and I. If I had done what I 'felt' was right then I would have run the little bastard off into the ditch but instead I used my experiance and common sense to do what was necessary to ensure that my passengers and myself along with the jerk who has a death wish was able to get to their destination without any problems.
I believe ( along with a lot of other folks ) that the police rely too much on their feelings rather than their training and since most of them are either jaded or just looking for trouble the end result is often tragic.
Is it really necessary to kill a person because you ' think ' he may be 'acting' like he is high and because you
' think ' he doesn't have permission to be where he is and because of those assumptions you ' think ' he is reaching for a weapon in his boot and because you ' think' all these add up you ' feel ' it is necessasry to shoot in order to defend your life?
Would'nt it be a better outcome for everyone ( family of both parties included) if the cop used his training instead of his feelings and his assumptions, I ' think ' a lot of innocent people would be alive today if cops stopped acting on their " gut feelings" and started acting on what they have been trained to do and if the training isn't cutting it then it's time for change. Lives depend on it. Depending on "gut feelings" is what a psychic does and I personally am not obliged to pay a psychic to ensure my communities safety or to allow said pyschic to use a deadly weapon whenever their " gut feeling" tells them there is danger.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Would you?

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GinnyLynn said:

Would you?

It is required of an officer using force that the force be objectionably reasonable. You're describing the difference between "feelings" of anger and retribution and a "gut feeling" of impending violation or violence. In my experience, the police rely on their training AND experience. You describe a scenario that, when taken in it's totality, may very well be reasonable that they used deadly force. You want a world where the officer doesn't have to rely on training and experience but where they would KNOW whether or not the person is armed and dangerous. That's called Disney World. This is the same mentality that cries out for an officer, faced with a life and death decision, to only WOUND their attacker. Surely the police with all this TRAINING can hit a moving target in the big toe and end the violence. I have yet, in my almost twenty years of law enforcement experience, to encounter a situation where a subject OBEYED the COMMANDS of an officer and was arbitrarily assassinated by the same officer. The circumstances that I have observed where a subject was killed by an officer, could have been avioded if the SUBJECT chose. Your request that an officer just KNOW instead of relying on training and experience is the worst kind of armchair quarterbacking. Join a department, carry a gun and a badge, and run into danger when every one else is running away. Be the one standing there in defiance of evil, instead of whining from the sidelines and your argument might have some merit.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

dayngerus you are very wise and you stated your point well. When the public does not understand or try to weasel out of a situation where they are clearly at fault; that is where I step in on LE side and show the public that by whatever means the officer used was justified. I too, am sick of hearing excuses from people when they get busted. It doesn't work with me. I shut that down so fast. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Excessive force: when you CONTINUE to apply force after the suspect has stopped the action that caused you to apply force in the first place or apply force that a reasonable person would find unnecessary or excessive to stop the action
Reasonable force: based on the officer's judgement, training, and experience, the amount of force necessary to prevent the suspect from continuing actions that a reasonable person would use force to stop

What I despise if you have about a split second to use force in some cases and the armchair quarterbacks get a week to mull over the evidence, media, and community pressure to make an educated judgement if that force used was excessive. How about you get them in a room and give them the same amount of time to make the decision as you had-most couldn't do it.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

chad44 said:

What would you as an LEO consider excessive force?

DON'T PISS ME OFF..............I'm really a shy quiet kind of guy.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

AdrenalineJunkie said:


chad44 said:


What would you as an LEO consider excessive force?


DON'T PISS ME OFF..............I'm really a shy quiet kind of guy.


Yeah. In the same way a hurricane is a mild deluge.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Bring on the Storm of the Century !

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Hip waders and water wings anyone?

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

AdrenalineJunkie said:


chad44 said:


What would you as an LEO consider excessive force?


DON'T PISS ME OFF..............I'm really a shy quiet kind of guy.


LMAO.......

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

UM NO "dayngerus" ( by the way appropriate name for a cop) that is not what I was talking about.
Did you notice the quote at the top of my post? A quote of another officer. A quote in which the officer claims that they do what they feel is right.
It is only simply, my understanding that officers are trained to use the skills not the feelings. Of course feelings come into play with the average Joe or Jane but when you are put into a position of power to use deadly force I am sure that many of us would feel a little more at ease to know that your skills due to your training is what leads you to make the choices of the type and extent of force you chose to utilize.
I am not one to wish harm on any person. I do not think police have an easy job and I do believe that if I was called to a family's home in the middle of the night because someone was beating on another I would feel anxious, things would cross my mind such as ... has there been any drinking or drugging involved, is ther children in the house, will I see my family again, could this be the very last time I will ever spend in my car, was last night the last night I would spend in my bed, am I going to die.
Because of the anxiety that I would feel due to all those possibilities and more I would not be capable of making a safe and sound decision on how to handle the situation. I am not a cop but I have been trained to shoot and am quite excellent at it but I have not been trained to do what a cop has been. A cop is supposed to be trained to deal with the feelings, set them aside and make the proper choices. Someone going into a home under that kind of stress is likely to shoot and kill the first man woman or child that says boo.
So, my point is put the " feelings " aside, utilize all the expensive training you've been blessed with and do your job, your chosen career to the best of your ability and like with anything else if your ability is not up to par then get out. There is a REASON for the training, the folks who train you would be happy to explain to you how it is that they know, how it has been proven to work better than a gut feeling.

OH and one more thing? What is the crap about " don't piss me off" and all the hurricane and storm of the century dribble about? You really should think about what you type in the public forums and how you handle yourselves.
What do you think you commanding officer would say should he be confronted by a media scource on the type of crap that officers of the law post in a forum about excessive force?
Nice...I came here a few weeks ago in desperation. I needed to know that what I was hearing from my loved ones and the towns folk was not true, that it wasn't normal behavior for a cop to act unprofessional since I know my family members who are cops are great guys. I wanted to re assure my nephew that the police are honorable.
Now I almost feel violated. Like the stuff I read on this web site not only proved me wrong but ripped the rug right out from under me.
Better to learn now I guess.... Maybe this is a web site for a diferent type of cop? Maybe I will find what I am looking for in a different site.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

GinnyLynn said:

UM NO "dayngerus" ( by the way appropriate name for a cop) that is not what I was talking about.
Did you notice the quote at the top of my post? A quote of another officer. A quote in which the officer claims that they do what they feel is right.
It is only simply, my understanding that officers are trained to use the skills not the feelings. Of course feelings come into play with the average Joe or Jane but when you are put into a position of power to use deadly force I am sure that many of us would feel a little more at ease to know that your skills due to your training is what leads you to make the choices of the type and extent of force you chose to utilize.
I am not one to wish harm on any person. I do not think police have an easy job and I do believe that if I was called to a family's home in the middle of the night because someone was beating on another I would feel anxious, things would cross my mind such as ... has there been any drinking or drugging involved, is ther children in the house, will I see my family again, could this be the very last time I will ever spend in my car, was last night the last night I would spend in my bed, am I going to die.
Because of the anxiety that I would feel due to all those possibilities and more I would not be capable of making a safe and sound decision on how to handle the situation. I am not a cop but I have been trained to shoot and am quite excellent at it but I have not been trained to do what a cop has been. A cop is supposed to be trained to deal with the feelings, set them aside and make the proper choices. Someone going into a home under that kind of stress is likely to shoot and kill the first man woman or child that says boo.
So, my point is put the " feelings " aside, utilize all the expensive training you've been blessed with and do your job, your chosen career to the best of your ability and like with anything else if your ability is not up to par then get out. There is a REASON for the training, the folks who train you would be happy to explain to you how it is that they know, how it has been proven to work better than a gut feeling.

OH and one more thing? What is the crap about " don't piss me off" and all the hurricane and storm of the century dribble about? You really should think about what you type in the public forums and how you handle yourselves.
What do you think you commanding officer would say should he be confronted by a media scource on the type of crap that officers of the law post in a forum about excessive force?
Nice...I came here a few weeks ago in desperation. I needed to know that what I was hearing from my loved ones and the towns folk was not true, that it wasn't normal behavior for a cop to act unprofessional since I know my family members who are cops are great guys. I wanted to re assure my nephew that the police are honorable.
Now I almost feel violated. Like the stuff I read on this web site not only proved me wrong but ripped the rug right out from under me.
Better to learn now I guess.... Maybe this is a web site for a diferent type of cop? Maybe I will find what I am looking for in a different site.

No reason to feel violated.............we were just funnin as usual. Serious you want it's serious you'll have. Cops are bound by the same laws we enforce, although we have the power to go one step above the threat, starting with verbal commands at the bottom of the continuum ladder, and working up and so on and so forth. We are held accountable for our actions, but ONE TRUTH stands............. You put your hands on a cop, your life is in your own hands, and I consider that a deadly game that I WILL WIN........rules, laws, consequences all go out the window, if not, I'm not doing my job to protect and serve. I LEAVE MY FAMILY AT HOME every night so I can confront the armed husband who is threatening to kill his wife and kids because he finally realized he''ll never see them again......none of who I even know. Should I stop him ? If I think about what force to use too long they're DEAD. Tell your nephew that cops are his best friend, and we'll always be there if he ever needs us..........it's who we are.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

GinnyLynn, I'd like to interject a comment here about your reaction to the responses you received.

One purpose served by a website like this is that cops have a place to blow off steam. They live under a microscope, and society has a right to hold them to a high standard while they are on duty.

But they aren't on-duty here. If they want to joke around some, or give the answers they'd LIKE to give when they are on duty, that's their call. Chad asked a question, he did get serious answers and he got playful ones. And they gave him credit for being able to distinguish between the two.

Questions about what constitutes excessive force are complicated and situational-- and you can ask them theoretically, but the answers you are going to get here are coming from people for whom it is a lot more than a theoretical issue. When someone answers with heat or intensity, consider that he or she may be speaking out of their own traumatic experiences.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

ChaplainKeppy said:

GinnyLynn, I'd like to interject a comment here about your reaction to the responses you received.

One purpose served by a website like this is that cops have a place to blow off steam. They live under a microscope, and society has a right to hold them to a high standard while they are on duty.

But they aren't on-duty here. If they want to joke around some, or give the answers they'd LIKE to give when they are on duty, that's their call. Chad asked a question, he did get serious answers and he got playful ones. And they gave him credit for being able to distinguish between the two.

Questions about what constitutes excessive force are complicated and situational-- and you can ask them theoretically, but the answers you are going to get here are coming from people for whom it is a lot more than a theoretical issue. When someone answers with heat or intensity, consider that he or she may be speaking out of their own traumatic experiences.

I agree this website is too have fun and be serious, I can distinguish what's playful and serious so I would have to agree with you ChaplainKeppy!!

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

GinnyLynn- I disagree with your assertion that cops should put aside their feelings when doing their jobs and rely only on their training. If something feels 'hinky' a seasoned officer will pay attention to that feeling. Lives are saved many times every day because of these 'feelings.' You seem to be describing a robotic existence where the information is input and the output is mistake/accident free. A cop has to deal with many variables along with changing laws and technology. You cannot expect an A, B, C, D scenario to be a one size fits all approach. A cop has to assess the situation, get a 'feel' for it and act, often within seconds. Too often, it's the times when 'feelings' are ignored that those few seconds result in a life ended too soon or a life spent wondering what if. Courageous men and women confront their fears and act anyway. Mistakes happen because humans are involved. Do you think robots could do the job better?

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

LieutenantDan said:

Excessive Force- Any force beyond what is required.

Unnecessary Force- The use of force when none is required.

What he said!


"It would be better for one to have a stone tied around their neck and thrown into the sea, than to cause a child to stumble."

"Well-behaved women rarely make history"

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

jims4 said:

I often wonder how when I was a kid, up until the 70's, the words excessive force weren't even in our vocabulary. Once respect for the police and authority went out the window, these things became an issue. My take on it, an officer does what he has to do at the moment. Why should he have to think of the backlash when he is in a fight for his life?

Back in the "good ol days" the perp expected an a$$whooping when caught. Now the perp is wanting an a$$whooping so he can sue your a$$!


"It would be better for one to have a stone tied around their neck and thrown into the sea, than to cause a child to stumble."

"Well-behaved women rarely make history"

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

babeblu said:

Ok I am not a LEO, just a person with something to say about everything lol...
.Wondering ??? .....
I understand act and react,,,,,,, and protecting a life (especially your own and your co workers),,
I have watched the media over the last year hammer Austin PD ,,with officer involved shootings, and of course picking and choosing according to the drama of the story.
It has left alot of people (general public) with 1/2 of a story and a bad taste in their mouth.,
(the officers side always tied up in internal investigations, therefore not reported in its entirety)
and of course due to air time,,, the special interests groups hop on the bandwagon.
Leaving our officers with a bad taste in their mouth ,,with reason.
Due to our freedom of speech (and sometimes lack of common sense ) is there a way to legally media cap these story's getting air time ????
At least until the internal investigations are done and the story is complete?

Austin media crucifies their officers!!! I would never work for APD, too liberal, and anti-leos!


"It would be better for one to have a stone tied around their neck and thrown into the sea, than to cause a child to stumble."

"Well-behaved women rarely make history"

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

LCarvin said:


jims4 said:


I often wonder how when I was a kid, up until the 70's, the words excessive force weren't even in our vocabulary. Once respect for the police and authority went out the window, these things became an issue. My take on it, an officer does what he has to do at the moment. Why should he have to think of the backlash when he is in a fight for his life?


Back in the "good ol days" the perp expected an a$$whooping when caught. Now the perp is wanting an a$$whooping so he can sue your a$$!


A sad reality. I remember getting a whack across the back of the legs with the nightstick and being told, "get off the corner". When I told my Mother, her answer was, "shouldn't have been on the corner".

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

ChaplainKeppy said:

GinnyLynn, I'd like to interject a comment here about your reaction to the responses you received.

One purpose served by a website like this is that cops have a place to blow off steam. They live under a microscope, and society has a right to hold them to a high standard while they are on duty.

But they aren't on-duty here. If they want to joke around some, or give the answers they'd LIKE to give when they are on duty, that's their call. Chad asked a question, he did get serious answers and he got playful ones. And they gave him credit for being able to distinguish between the two.

Questions about what constitutes excessive force are complicated and situational-- and you can ask them theoretically, but the answers you are going to get here are coming from people for whom it is a lot more than a theoretical issue. When someone answers with heat or intensity, consider that he or she may be speaking out of their own traumatic experiences.

Thanks Chap, as complicated as I am, you understand me. The day I can't BLOW OFF STEAM on this site, is the day they close it. GREAT SITE !

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

There are a few "older" officers still working with my dept. They will all tell you that when they started policing they had three basic levels of force. Verbal, nightsick, .357 Mag. Over the last two decades people have lost their respect for the police and many departments preached "community oriented policing". I have to problem with "C.O.P." programs, but I hate to see a department fry an officer for doing what needs to be done. It comes down to the two rules of being a cop. 1) Always go home at the end of the shift, no matter what it takes! 2) Forget everything else and refer back to rule number one!


PL Mentoring Team Member

My day begins when yours ends.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

GinnyLynn said:

UM NO "dayngerus" ( by the way appropriate name for a cop) that is not what I was talking about.
Did you notice the quote at the top of my post? A quote of another officer. A quote in which the officer claims that they do what they feel is right.
It is only simply, my understanding that officers are trained to use the skills not the feelings. Of course feelings come into play with the average Joe or Jane but when you are put into a position of power to use deadly force I am sure that many of us would feel a little more at ease to know that your skills due to your training is what leads you to make the choices of the type and extent of force you chose to utilize.
I am not one to wish harm on any person. I do not think police have an easy job and I do believe that if I was called to a family's home in the middle of the night because someone was beating on another I would feel anxious, things would cross my mind such as ... has there been any drinking or drugging involved, is ther children in the house, will I see my family again, could this be the very last time I will ever spend in my car, was last night the last night I would spend in my bed, am I going to die.
Because of the anxiety that I would feel due to all those possibilities and more I would not be capable of making a safe and sound decision on how to handle the situation. I am not a cop but I have been trained to shoot and am quite excellent at it but I have not been trained to do what a cop has been. A cop is supposed to be trained to deal with the feelings, set them aside and make the proper choices. Someone going into a home under that kind of stress is likely to shoot and kill the first man woman or child that says boo.
So, my point is put the " feelings " aside, utilize all the expensive training you've been blessed with and do your job, your chosen career to the best of your ability and like with anything else if your ability is not up to par then get out. There is a REASON for the training, the folks who train you would be happy to explain to you how it is that they know, how it has been proven to work better than a gut feeling.

OH and one more thing? What is the crap about " don't piss me off" and all the hurricane and storm of the century dribble about? You really should think about what you type in the public forums and how you handle yourselves.
What do you think you commanding officer would say should he be confronted by a media scource on the type of crap that officers of the law post in a forum about excessive force?
Nice...I came here a few weeks ago in desperation. I needed to know that what I was hearing from my loved ones and the towns folk was not true, that it wasn't normal behavior for a cop to act unprofessional since I know my family members who are cops are great guys. I wanted to re assure my nephew that the police are honorable.
Now I almost feel violated. Like the stuff I read on this web site not only proved me wrong but ripped the rug right out from under me.
Better to learn now I guess.... Maybe this is a web site for a diferent type of cop? Maybe I will find what I am looking for in a different site.

Ok. Since it appears that your entire comment was aimed at me, allow me to respond.
I did not answer the quote at the top of your post, I answered your question(s). You are describing the difference between emotion and feelings. You may not have noticed, or believe, that there is a human being inside that uniform. I will make a statement that I believe to be completely correct, officers/deputies are the most FEELING people I have ever encountered. They are, by and large, one of the more sensitive people that society encounters. You'd never know it of course because they bottle it up and hold it in. They must, to continue to come to work every day with the express purpose of helping others, despite the HUGE amount of grief they receive for their efforts. Officers ARE trained and DO respond to their training, and I my experience they do both very well. You want an emotionless automoton dispensing blind decisions based on cold rationale. That is not realistic.

If I read the entire post correctly, you have basically said that I am not honorable, unprofessional and I violated you. Apparently you did not like my response to YOUR questions, too bad. I'm not going to be intimidated or coerced into giving you a politically correct response because it would make you feel better. Your original post was mean spirited and petulant. This post is an attempt to assert your high handed, superior, and extremely fictional, view of police work. Your take on how an officer should respond, what he/she should think, what he/she should do comes from having NEVER held that position. You want me to tell you how to do your job?

This is a public forum. I don't consider either of my responses to you unprofessional. I have given you an honest response to both. You have a right to your opinion. I have the right to think you are wrong. I am sorry to hear about your desperate situation. I have no idea what you are referring to, but I am not without sympathy to your problem. If either of my responses sounded harsh, they were not meant to be. I buried my best friend, and former partner of six years patrol, last April. He, and his current partner, were shot in the head and murdered by someone for no apparent reason. If I sound sensitive to criticism on how an officer should respond, this is why. I wish, with all my heart, that my partner would have shot first. Bottom line, you have no idea, no authority, no training, and absolutely no right to tell me how an officer should do his/her job.

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Rate This | Posted about 7 years ago

 

Good post, dayngerus. And I am sorry for your loss-- if you have mentioned it before, I missed it. That's exactly what I was trying to say about the difference between theory and speaking from experience.

You're welcome, AJ.

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